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So...which came first...the Tyranid hive fleet or the egg?

Where did the first hive fleet start? It can't have just appeared as a bio-engineered beast; floating through the universe.

You'll have to bear with me here as I am making a non-GW case for a species that starts in the dirt and ends in the stars.

Think of the film Starship Troopers (SST). In that film, they have all of the elements that make Tyranids what they are (including an assumed hive mind). From that, you could suppose that in the beginning, the Tyranids could have evolved on a planet surface. From simple beginnings you could see the evolution of anything upto maybe a Hive Tyrant or maybe...at a push...a Trygon...but nothing much bigger. They could have the equivalent of the plasma bugs from SST (what with the bio-plasma Tyranids have) that could theoretically fire Tyranids into space...the start of the hive in space. Lots of plasma-nids; lots of nids fired into space; lots of nids joining together to make the equivalent of the rafts real ants make...eventually...hive fleets.

So...in the beginning there were rippers...hormagaunts...hive tyrants...carnifex...warriors...ALL with no projectile weapons. Lots of claws, lots of teeth but they haven't evolved enough to have bio weapons just yet...an indigenous species, living on a planet. In the early years, plenty of resources...later on bio weapons evolve due to resources running low and the Tyranids needing to leave the planet...in effect a mass migration...

I plan on making a Tyranid army based on the idea of an indigenous species...

What are people's thoughts?

My thoughts are that the nids originated a long time ago in a galaxy far far away..... (jokes aside) I believe they have consumed many galaxies beforehand and have only recently started on this one (they could be consuming multiple galaxies at the same time). They either evolved on their own, but far more likely IMO they were created by another species to fight wars (and be good at it!) but then got out of control and started off on their own. They could also be a representation of evolution at the best it can possibly be (and out of control!).

vodo40k wrote:My thoughts are that the nids originated a long time ago in a galaxy far far away..... (jokes aside) I believe they have consumed many galaxies beforehand and have only recently started on this one (they could be consuming multiple galaxies at the same time). They either evolved on their own, but far more likely IMO they were created by another species to fight wars (and be good at it!) but then got out of control and started off on their own. They could also be a representation of evolution at the best it can possibly be (and out of control!).

Right on the money.
Very logical.
I cannot imagine the nids naturaly evolving from a cellular stage.
They must have been created by another species, or more probabaly been created by the hive mind.
I belive the hive mind to be their god, as EVREY species has created a god or similarily powerful beind (i.e. humans; god emperor, orks; gork and mork, eldar; slanesh)

They are an extragalactic force, so chances are, their origins are way ahead of humans. They may possibly be as old as the necrons and eldar.

I think they are ALL creations, perhaps containing genetic material originating from a single world, but I doubt they resemble their original creators... Tyranids are engineered just as much as we would a tank

Okay if you think the hive mind is their god do you think it would be as powerful as say Slaanesh Khorne or any of the other gods that the different races believe in or is it something much stronger that no god can permeate?

I see the Tyranids like the Xenomorphs from the AvP series. Created by a super advanced society to fight a civil war. But they lost control of the species and it is only doing what they genetically programmed it do.

Maybe it was like that at first, like how tyranids are without synapse but then the hive mind evolved, was introduced or took over and the tyranids have been nomming everything ever since.

It's the hive mind that makes the 'nids what they are. The hive mind could be better likened to the emperor than a chaos god. A much more "evolved" equivilent anyway. The hive mind was borne from the thoughts of all tyranids everywhere. Without it, 'nids lack consciousness of any kind and revert to their animal instincts. All that is known for sure is that they've consumed at least one galaxy (their own) and may have consumed (or may be consuming) more than one.
It's like all the psychic energy of an entire species collected into a single, race-spanning deity.
It sould be noted that, with the posible exception of the gaunt genus (since they actually have their own insticts that do not involve further the species), all tyranids are tailored to there given task, and in no way naturally occuring.
There are many stories of creatures "believed" to be related to the tyranid genuses, and may give clues to their origens, like the Catachin devils, etc.

Aren't ants tailored for their given role? Warriors, drones, queens etc?

Is there any reason why the original Tyranids didn't come from somewhere and that initially they were genetically modified rather than genetically created.

After all, in order to start a creation, you need a few components first?

As for the hive mind, don't ants also have a hive mind (although instead of it being psychic it is based on chemical excretions)?

As a species, we have destroyed whole cities at the touch of a button...but we came from apes and before that...sea creatures...

Maybe, there was a planet somewhere in the universe that had the 'basic' nids living there. An alien species turns up and takes a few specimens and starts the genetic evolution process...the modified nids get clever as a result of the manipulation and they escape...and so it begins...

...that would mean that there were still the unmodified nids living somewhere...

lol inso I would watch what you say not everybody believes that we came from apes and this is a good discussion hopefully it won't turn into a religious debate.

A neat thought (I think) is that the "pre-'nids" were probably very gaunt like, but somehow evolved the genestealer-esque ability to... well... steal genes.

That would well explain both their unquenshable hunger and their apparent ability to spawn creatures with whatever trait they desire for any given situation. The current 'nids are the accumulated DNA from the galaxy they came from (and presumably consumed to extinction).

WingsofCadia wrote:lol inso I would watch what you say not everybody believes that we came from apes and this is a good discussion hopefully it won't turn into a religious debate.

I don't think anyone said anything about people coming from apes. This was all a simple discussion about the evolution of the Tyranid species (in 40k). None of this had anything to do with human evolution until you came in.

On the topic of 'nid evolution. The major trait that (nearly) all tyranids share is six limbs, a tail, and a head. I agree with Zio in that they prolly looked very gaunt-like.

Ever notice that all the gaunts have these li'l baby pincer arms underneath their main arms? They look pretty much vestigial.
This is probably a throwback to their older (original?) form.

There's no such thing as a "queen" egg for ants or bees: the workers themselves, through merely eusocial means, choose a new queen and do the legwork that will allow that egg to develop into a reproductive 'caste'.

The problem with the whole application of anthropocentric terms like "queen" and "caste" to eusocial insects is that they are misleading. The queen bee is no more the queen of the hive than Freddie Mercury was Queen of England. A queen bee is merely the female reproductive member of the hive. Likewise the point of castes is that they are defined by station, occupation, and community: you don't marry outside your castes, but all castes in an ant colony are genetically identical: it's epigenetic factors that have caused them to develop differently.

But back to Tyranids.

I don't like the official fluff on Tyranids. I've hated it since 2nd edition. I much preferred the 1st edition, Rogue Trader, background that had them as using organic technology actually made out of other life-forms rather than evolved from a central Tyranid genome, keeping slaves, and causing insanity in more conventional races. The whole notion of the Tyranids are tyrannical and bent on subjugating other races to not only their authority, but also their whim ("This human would work better as a coffee-table, break out the bone-saws!") appeals to me more than the bland "Great Devourer" of official GW fluff.

I prefer a notion of individual Tyanids with actual individual motivations, somewhat more aligned with eusocial insects such that a Hive Tyrant is a male drone of the female queens, but one that dominates the hive through both psychic force and patriarchy. Naturally genestealers are a biological weapon, a macrovirus intended to infiltrate and convert other races to willing minions of a Tyranid Hive Tyrant.

The Tyranids have their castes, although their caste is determined by epigenetic 'flesh-smithing' rather than any genetic bull-poop. Which fits really nicely with the current model line which I love because it really gives Tyranids a coherent look which fits really nicely with my background: Rippers are larvae that can develop into Workers (Termagants), or small Warriors (Hormagaunts), or large Warriors (Warriors), or small Scouts (Gargoyles), or large Scouts (Winged Warriors), or Tanks (Carnifex), etc.

All of my Tyranids thusly follow the Termagant layout: scything talons as the mid-legs (usually positioned to emphasize a quadrapedal locomotion) and the forelegs bearing a weapon or manipulative (rending) claws. The Warriors all have their crests severely cut back to match the Termagants, Hive Tyrants, Carnifices, etc. I'm really looking forward to incorporating the new models, particularly the snake and winged forms into my army.

Mind you, I've incorporated the concept of the Great Devourer into my personal background's concept of religious beliefs for the Tyranids, making the Great Devourer their concept of the divine, the eternal attributes of hunger, domination, bloodlust, and consumption.

In a sense they're a mix between the Imperium, the Tau, and the Orks. Like the Orks they're de-centralized - each Hive Tyrant is out for himself and his hive of progeny, either trying to reach a new world to establish a planet-spanning Tyranid Hive, or trying to conquer (or re-conquer) a planet that doesn't accept him as ultimate ruler. Like the Imperium they're in it for racial hegemony, judging that Tyranids are the true holders of Manifest Galactic Destiny, and despite internal disputes will unite against outsiders. Finally, like the Tau, they'll accept aliens into their society, except like Orks they'll only accept them as slaves or food. They want to enslave, dominate, and tyrannize the galaxy.

That's where they're unlike the other races of 40k - where the rest will either kill or enslave you, the Tyranids will disassemble your still living body into components of disgusting organic technology, rather than killing you and reassembling you at a genetic level. They don't attack planet because they're somehow trying to get more DNA (they have plenty of their own and can grow more much more efficiently by growing it themselves). They're doing so for the same reasons as the humans, tau, orks, eldar, and other violent powers of the galaxy: to promote their own ascendence and dominance over the galaxy: they just do it in a particularly disgusting and alien fashion.

Wow, that's an interesting spin on the 'nids...
I actually like the mindless wave of innocent insects, intent on devouring you. Too many things step on the toes of chaos, and I quite like the variety of species and such in the 40k galaxy. It's very interesting.

I never said there was a queen egg for anything...I said they were tailored for their role...

I'm not sure that I could attach too much sentience to the nids...Mine will be very much akin to insects rather than anything that could have a chosen belief system.

Interesting idea though

I heard a rumour that they were the spawnings of a crazed C'tans mind...the Outsider I believe.

Lukus83 wrote:I heard a rumour that they were the spawnings of a crazed C'tans mind...the Outsider I believe.

That's a case of someone taking part of the Eldar prophecy in the Necron codex and putting 'spin' on it...

"That Which Lies Outside Shall Be Drawn To The Harvest"

Which alludes to the C'tan known as The Outsider and suggesting that The Harvest relates to the Tyranids. It's a huge guess and one I don't agree with. For One good reason, no point in mixing your 'great evils' up, blurring the necrons with the tyranids would diminish the individual menace of either.

My own theory is that the Tyranids represent the advanced spacefaring result of evolution on a Death World, several Death World are noted for the way in which their entire ecosystem acts as antibodies if the planet is invaded, that the whole ecosystem displays a gestalt conscience. If so, then no great leap of logic to have the most advanced races on the planet begin to develop space travel.

Most important is that we haven't seen it all yet, we don't know how many more species of Tyranid await us outside the galactic rim and are observing their troops actions in the galaxy, pondering if this war infested, warp unstable galaxy full of highly resistant species is really worth the bother or if they should be concentrating on the hundreds of other galaxies they have targeted.

The presence of 'old' tyranid species left behind on planets indicates to me that the Tyranids are just coming back every so often and testing the defences of the galaxy, see if it's ready for farming yet.

I have actually put a lot of thought into the back story of the tyranids. I liked the "spin" story because it couldn't be disproved, but that's pretty much all I liked.

That the nid's could have developed into space faring creatures without harvesting and assimilating a higher form of life first seems highly unlikely. My guess is that they would have had to started as a primitive lifeform (insectoid due to their "unification") that took over a whole planet populated by a space faring race...probably that ones that were capable of using biotechnology, since the resources of 1 planet are probably not enough to get a whole hive fleet started. Biotechnology would have solved this problem as they could effectively incorporate and use this technology. It also would have given the first tyranids the boost they needed to get into space with a decent fleet capable of absorbing multiple sources of biomass (planets), without being destroyed by other more advanced races space fleets too quickly and ending their threat.

They may have simply originated on a planet upon which there was a very weak atmosphere. If this was the case, then the "jumP' to a space faring existance would have been much smaller. I'm thinking "moon bugs". =)

There would have to be some event that forced the species into space, though it could have been as simple as, "oh, we're out of food... maybe there's some up there!". There may have even been an evolutionary arms race of, "who can go higher". In a low gravity atmosphere, staying up really high would have been pretty easy, baring suffocation, and may have been the best solution to getting eaten.

I like your spin on the organic technology bit besides them just being mindless. Like a blend of Yuuzhan Vong, and a human society taken from the game "Septerra Core" which uses organic ships and their entire cities are grown. I like it ^_^. And with the new Tyranid codex coming out I am considering them being my third army.

That's more an eldar thing actually. They "grow" all their ships and structures out o something called wraithbone. The "wraith singers" use some sort of psychic artisan skill to manipulate it's form. They grow most of their crap this way actually.

The whole biotechnology thing was just meant to be a starting point. Tyranids evolve and assimilate DNA extraordinarily fast.

I was just suggesting that to get them into space we would need to use their ability to gain access. Normal rockets aren't any good since there isn't anything that the nid's could use...but biotech could easily be incorporated to get those nids into space.

Without this all you have is a race all under the control of the hive mind assimilating everything on their own planet with no way to get off their own planet.

The evolution and assimilation of DNA (what?) is a 2nd edition innovation. Tyranid biotechnology was originally compared to Eldar biotech, except with the emphasis instead on a disturbing aesthetic of raw flesh, of organisms physically adapted, rather than any kind of genetic tampering beyond the usual epigenetic rejigging.

If you want an explanation of early Tyranid space-flight, look no further than psychic powers. Mind you, that's a complete cop-out, so it's more fun to consider heaving masses of flesh to act as grav-turbines to lift a mass of bone and gristle into orbit to act as an orbital nursery for space-adapted Tyranid clades.

Remember that the original Tyranids of Rogue Trader were completely adapted to zero-gravity, and found occupying gravity wells draining and difficult. They could just as well evolved naturally in an asteroid field in interstellar space that has accumulated enough gas around it to form an atmosphere.

Nurglitch wrote:The evolution and assimilation of DNA (what?) is a 2nd edition innovation. Tyranid biotechnology was originally compared to Eldar biotech, except with the emphasis instead on a disturbing aesthetic of raw flesh, of organisms physically adapted, rather than any kind of genetic tampering beyond the usual epigenetic rejigging.

If you want an explanation of early Tyranid space-flight, look no further than psychic powers. Mind you, that's a complete cop-out, so it's more fun to consider heaving masses of flesh to act as grav-turbines to lift a mass of bone and gristle into orbit to act as an orbital nursery for space-adapted Tyranid clades.

Remember that the original Tyranids of Rogue Trader were completely adapted to zero-gravity, and found occupying gravity wells draining and difficult. They could just as well evolved naturally in an asteroid field in interstellar space that has accumulated enough gas around it to form an atmosphere.

Yep, I remember in the book Space Marine by Ian Watson, the Lamenters space marines that had been captured had been grafted into living lamps.

About a year ago I was told two rumors by a freind of mine that has been in the game since the first space hulk. He wasnt sure if GW/Rogue Trader backed this fluff anymore but it's stuff he had read.
1. The nids were thought to actually be running from something and entering our galexy to escape it rather than us just being there next food source.
2. "The tyranids were created to consume the resorces of a powerful enemy, to counter this threat that enemy became machina. The tyranids fled the galaxy in fear. Now it seems they have returned" I believe machina is french for machine, dont quote me on this though. I think there may be some truth in this because it shows a hive fleet completly avoiding the planet The Outsider (crazy basterd) is currently believed to be on. And they couldve been created by the Old Ones, after all it does seem like something they would do. I like the idea of them running from something, makes you think what it could be... even crazier basterd c'tan god we dont know about!!!

My take on nids is only based on fluff from 3rd and 4th edition nid dexs:

I think that the nids evolved from a simple insect, through to a being, not humanoid but evolved. At some point I think parasites that fed on the tyranids evolved into their way of life. Helping them to kill pray or adapt to their environment.

As they continued to evolve and expand, they found a way to feed themselves from the actual planet they started on, and as this was happening, to maintain a coherent/organised race, the hive mind evolved, and the norn[spelling] queens, etc.

As the planet they lived on died, the hive mind became the centre of their being, like a cancer. As the planet crumbled away, it left the tyranids floating through space. As it came close to planets with resources to sustain them, it insead of landing sent spores to consume the planet, and after some time evolved to the point of a hive mind, when the planet crumbled away leaving it also floating through space, connected to the primary hive mind, and forming a lesser hive ship.

This continued on until the lesser hive ships could branch out faster and consume planets faster, evolving faster. And the more hive ships branched out, maintaining a sort of artery to heart connecting, this became the tyranids we know today.

vodo40k wrote:My thoughts are that the nids originated a long time ago in a galaxy far far away..... (jokes aside) I believe they have consumed many galaxies beforehand and have only recently started on this one (they could be consuming multiple galaxies at the same time). They either evolved on their own, but far more likely IMO they were created by another species to fight wars (and be good at it!) but then got out of control and started off on their own. They could also be a representation of evolution at the best it can possibly be (and out of control!).

This definitely. Another galaxies advanced race long ago make them as the ultimate biological weapon. Then the Hive mind overpowered whatever controlled them. Now they continue what they do best and over the millenia have incorporated useful attributes from species they've consumed and combined them to make the creatures we see today in hive fleets. Though we have stories of supposed tyranids cut off from the hive mind that survive independently. Like the catachan devil or the kraken on fenris. Imagine if a hive fleet splinter were able to draw such creatures back into the hive mind?

Lexx wrote:Though we have stories of supposed tyranids cut off from the hive mind that survive independently. Like the catachan devil or the kraken on fenris. Imagine if a hive fleet splinter were able to draw such creatures back into the hive mind?

A quick hop-skip-jump into the digestion pool, out pops more rippers to eat corpses. Its a hard life