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They seem just about right to me.

If you are asking, I think 2+ with Fortune is too high. 3+ or even 3+/3++ is better.

He could use some kind of a "cool" close combat rule. Like re-roll all to-hit or some kind of a multiple attacks rule.

You wouldn’t be able to cast fortune or any other psychic power on the avatar. Gargantuan creatures are resistant to all psychic powers except those that deal a direct strength hit upon them. You are right that a fortuned avatar would be over the top, but luckily the rules don’t allow for it.

His “always its on 3+” was a rule that I though displayed his capabilities as a war god. I considered giving him a flame spray attack in which all models in base to base take a hit and even wrote out the rules for such an attack, but realized that it would likely be redundant due to the stomp attack all gargantuan creatures receive. I was also concerned with making him to powerful, I wanted to extend the relationship the avatar has with the four greater daemons to the daemon lords in the apocalypse setting. The GWS avatar has a chance a taking out a keeper in hand to hand, but not a good one, I wanted preserve that relationship when facing a daemon lord.

Looking at the imperfect, but telling percentages, it seems very fair. Sure it's expensive, but not too expensive. Sure it has lots of special abilities, but not when compared to other incredible creatures. It really does seem like the avatar is the underdog when going against other daemons... Do you think that relationship should stay true?

In looking at the numbers it seems like he is always under he gun. I feel like if that's the case maybe the points should be a little lower because it seems to always lose, even if it would take an entire game to finish him off.

I really do like the whole thing, especially the extra attacks which are really well done and perfect with the fluff.

I think the avatar’s ballistic capabilities and the fact that he can create an 18” radius circle that makes the eldar fearless, compensates for the fact that he is the underdog when directly duking it out with daemon lords.

I find the Khorne Daemon Lord combat the most informative for gauging my rules. Actually winning 15% against such a target really speaks for the power of such an unit. In game terms it tells me that if I put a couple of wounds on the Daemon lord beforehand or send the avatar with some fearless units in assistance, he would have a decent shot at taking out one of the scariest close combat creations in the game.

The Nurgle Daemon Lord data was greatly skewed, this was due to the fact that the lord has a toughness of 9, 10 wounds, and causes two wounds for every hit instead of one. With a strength of 8 it was hard for my avatar to damage the daemon lord.

The round average is also telling, which is why I included it in my article. While the nurgle daemon lord is heavily favor to win, it will take him an average of 7 combat rounds to defeat the avatar. The lowest average round was between the C’tan and was 4 rounds until the combat was decided. While the avatar tends to lose when going directly against these titans, it’s not like they are simply slapping him out of their way. Plus the calculations are based on unassisted combat for an extended period of time. If the avatar received aid from a seer council or pack of harlequins (Who would be fearless) that aid could easily swing the fight in favor of the avatar, which is something we can easily expect to see in an actual game. Any combat with the avatar and a respectful opponent will likely last for a decent number of game turns with the rest of apocalypse battle occurring around the struggling giants.

I stand corrected, and gladly so.

You could give him a Power of the WAAAGH! type rule.

I was really on the fence about whether or not to give him furious charge, but decided that it wasn’t merited due to the fact that more deserving units like the Khorne Daemon lord did not receive the rule.

How about an addition to the Inspirational Rule that treats eldar models within a certain distances of the avatar as if they are receiving the Enhance augment. Giving a radius of eldar plus one to their WS and Initiative is kinda of like an eldar version of the WAAAGH. Plus it extends the avatar as being a support/ leadership figure instead of just being combat monsters. At 18 inches it might be over powering, I will have to put some thought into it.

Guys.... They already have rules for the forgeworld model.. Look in the Apocalypse reloaded book...

I see what you mean with the ballistic skill. I can see you're trying to make the avatar more of an anchor for the entire force instead of a one man killing machine. That really does work well with the fluff and in game terms too. Nicely done once again!

Article Edit -Altered inspiration to include an enhancement bonus as well, kept at price to 750 points.

@ AssassinAya: I don’t think its fair to say that the forge world avatar already has rules due to the Phoenix Court datefax– they just put the model in as a showcase, the role could just as easily be played by the standard avatar model. The reloaded avatar rules uses the same stats and rules as the standard avatar but is given eternal warrior (something the avatar should have already as a daemon), extended range on its meltagun attack and inspiration, and a bonus attack for every Phoenix Lord nearby it. If I was to bother combat testing that avatar against the daemon lords and C’tan the combat would likely be over in one turn rather than the epic confrontation it should be judging by the models’ dynamic form and background.

The datafex does not give the forge world model justice and there is no reason why you couldn’t just use the standard avatar model in that formation and skip the forge world model entirely. It is also inconvenient that it is expected of you to use the six phoenix lords and having to start them all within 6 inches of the avatar. To use the avatar in such a manner you would have to buy over 1200 points of special characters and start them right next to a moderately capable 155 point monstrous creature in order to give that creature some token perks – whereas other datafexes offer even more significant perks to special characters with a much lower cost commitment. All it really does it let the eldar people use the forge world model as if it was the normal avatar with the benefit of comparatively small bonuses, and even then it is just as acceptable to use the normal avatar model instead of the forge world one. The phoenix court might not be the most worthless datafex in the game, but it is certainly a contender in my opinion. The opponent could easily just vaporize the avatar on turn one (Its not hard to kill a toughness 6 wound 4 monster in an apocalypse game) if they so desired destroying the whole point of the very expensive datafex.

The model deserves more than the toughness 6 strength 6 monstrous creature rules. It would like being told that GWS wasn’t going to produce rules for the giant Tzeench Daemon Lord, but you could always play him as Greater Daemon with some perks if you bought every chaos special character in the game and played them as a single unit.

@ Grunt_For_Christ: Thanks it’s always nice to have ones ideas appreciated. Right now I am just concerned with achieving a proper balance between capabilities, pricing and background. I am just hoping to have something that enough people thumbs up so I can comfortably request to field him in my games; if anything it would be preferably to have him be underpowered than overpowered.

I completely agree, and I really do like the enhancement bonus and definitely puts him more in the role of company standard, or inspiring general rather than epic battle between this god and that god. It's even fluffier (without changing much) and I personally feel like the cost is justified with the enhancements and is also very different from the apoc. stats. As it should be, your creation is unique, balanced, completely unlike what already exists without straying from a storyline, and offers unique abilities that you can't find anywhere else.

1st, If you consider the size of the currently released Avatar, and how puny it is. Look at the epic Amargeddon sized Avatar and compare that, with the forgeworld release, as well as the size of the Phoenix court. The forgeworld Avatar is how big the avatar SHOULD be.

Secondly, even if it were for Apocalypse and they made rules for him, Compared to things in Apocalypse, and going up against the Daemon Lords (lords! they're meant to be hella buff) He'd be hella puny, so they'd have to remake yet ANOTHER Avatar, Size Comparison wise to even go up against them in a believable match up.

Third, Consider the amount of things Eldar have already for Apocalypse. Vehicles, etc. That can go up against Apoc stuff already.

3.5: Look at the Trygon for the new Tyranid release. It was Apoc before, but deemed too puny apparently for Apocalypse, there's a high chance that when Eldar get re-released that they might make the forgeworld Avatar a plastic model.

4. For the Phoenix Court of Khaine, and them Infusing energy into the Avatar. If that's not "coaxing" the Avatar in the best possible way, short of bringing 2+ craftworlds together to weld Avatars together, then I don't know what is.

And if you've actually used the phoenix court of Khaine, you'd realize how insanely powerful it is in Apoc. already.

Out of all the horrible imbalanced things in 40k, it's already pretty balanced is all i'm saying. Time could be spent better thinking up how to work out fixes for some of the other crap things in the Eldar army, instead of massacreing an already powerful and feared unit.

Well since fixing things with 40k in it's current incarnation is totally impossible, why bother? Why not have fun and make an interesting character instead of frustrating yourself to no end trying to be a part of the non-paid GW editing staff?

AssassinAya wrote:1st, If you consider the size of the currently released Avatar, and how puny it is. Look at the epic Amargeddon sized Avatar and compare that, with the forgeworld release, as well as the size of the Phoenix court. The forgeworld Avatar is how big the avatar SHOULD be.

Not sure what kind of point you are attempting to make here. The avatar has been portrayed in a variety of sizes and capabilities, that’s a case for my rules not against them. The avatar has been depicted in some media as being even more powerful than the rules I created. In the novel Shadowpoint the avatar single handily kills several ork warbands with little effort and even destroys an ork vessel by resisting their tractor beam – something that could tear a titan to pieces.

AssassinAya wrote:Secondly, even if it were for Apocalypse and they made rules for him, Compared to things in Apocalypse, and going up against the Daemon Lords (lords! they're meant to be hella buff) He'd be hella puny, so they'd have to remake yet ANOTHER Avatar, Size Comparison wise to even go up against them in a believable match up.

Aside from the C’tan, which spend a lot of their time human sized, the normal avatar is the smallest monstrous creature in the game. He is actually mounted on the same bases used by ogyrn and terminators and he just stands just a little larger than an ogryn. Despite the fact he is close to halve the size of a bloodthirster he has the same level of durability – you could state that because the forge world model is smaller than the daemon lords means it does not deserve to approach their level of abilities, but by the same logic I could argue that the normal avatar does not merit its current abilities as it is significantly smaller than the greater daemons. That size relationship between the normal avatar and greater daemons and the forge world model avatar and daemon lords is very similar, so I don’t see why you are so opposed that the Daemon lords were used as a baseline for my rules.

AssassinAya wrote:Third, Consider the amount of things Eldar have already for Apocalypse. Vehicles, etc. That can go up against Apoc stuff already.

My rules where not made because I felt that eldar were tactical disadvantaged in apocalypse games, but because I felt it would add to the game and actually allow eldar players to use the forge world model in a sensibly manner. We could just as easily look at the ork players and say “You don’t really need a Gargantuan Squiggoth because you have some many vehicles and stompas already – here’s a model and feel free to uses it as a normal squiggoth and watch as it gets vaporized ten seconds into the game”. The same thing could be said for the daemon lords as well.

AssassinAya wrote:3.5: Look at the Trygon for the new Tyranid release. It was Apoc before, but deemed too puny apparently for Apocalypse, there's a high chance that when Eldar get re-released that they might make the forgeworld Avatar a plastic model.

And there is a reliable murmuring that the C’tan are being removed from the Necron codex and being brought into apocalypse with increased capabilities. A lot of necron players rely on the C’tan more than eldar rely on the avatar, but it looks like GWS doesn’t think that the C’tan belong in standard games anymore – I extended this line thinking to the eldar avatar because the background states that when the avatar arises the entire craftworld is at war. Normal 40K games fall more in the line of simple skirmishes, and do not merit the sacrifice of an exarch to involve the avatar. Whereas the trygon fills a similar role as a carnifex to the tyranids - their kits are even interchangeable. A lot of vehicles where also appropriated from forge world by GWS this has more to do with advancing technology and demand than the actual strength of the unit.

AssassinAya wrote:4. For the Phoenix Court of Khaine, and them Infusing energy into the Avatar. If that's not "coaxing" the Avatar in the best possible way, short of bringing 2+ craftworlds together to weld Avatars together, then I don't know what is.

There is a lot of fluff in the in warhammer of daemons and their like having fluctuating strength – at times that are many times stronger then they were before and vice ad versa. Greater Daemon and Daemon Princes have actually reached levels where they were gods in their own right. Having differently strength avatars is not really that much against the grain.

My suggestion of out right moving the avatar into apocalypse was based somewhat on the absence of the unit in standard games, which is bases solely on my own observations. I attempted to create a fluffy explanation for how there can be two different types of avatars was due to the eldar actually encouraging the avatar to achieve a higher level of power, which does not seem too extreme as there is fluff supporting such a development.

AssassinAya wrote:And if you've actually used the phoenix court of Khaine, you'd realize how insanely powerful it is in Apoc. already.

If you are saying that 6 phoenix lords plus an avatar is powerful then no one will disagree with you. If you are saying that playing the Phoenix Court of Khaine is a good idea then I have a lot of contention towards that notion.

Lets say that a player has all the models needed to build the Court and they were attempting to decide if it is better to use the models independent of each other or play the datafex. First the datafex charges 150 points plus models, this comes out to 1540 points, so it is very pricey even for apocalypse games.

When played as the datafex the six lords start the game within 6” of the avatar and must stay within that distance in order to provide the extra attacks – without those the avatar is just the standard one in combat with the benefit of eternal warrior.

So instead of flying in a wave serpent with a squad, they are stuck walking the avatar around, which slows them down considerably. They are already fearless and give that ability to the aspect warriors they join so being right next to the avatar is not providing them with any useful augmentation. So instead of creating six units of aspect warriors that are fearless and benefit from the freedom of either enhancing their movement via vehicle or even fleeting they are stuck within six inches of the avatar to which they are playing nursemaids, which prevents them from exploiting their particular specializations on the battlefield.

This creates an all your eggs in one basket situation, in which all your powerful characters are placed in one spot and deprived them the benefits of mobility or stealth. Why on earth would you want all your characters placed in one spot? The lords are decent when they are leading their aspects in their specialized roles, but instead they are placed in this 1500 point datafex that can be easily be dealt with – like I said before the avatar can simply be gun down on turn one. A toughness six, four wound monstrous creature that does not deepstrike in or possess a character will not last long if the opponent has any desire at to remove the unit from the game. “ Oh I see that you have quite a little gathering right there, that’s a monstrous creature right? Okay this, this, and this tank here is firing on the big guy. Wow that was easy. I guess I can just take pot shots at all the phoenix lords now”

Considering the points required to field such a datafex, it is a punishment on the player for using it. Yes the datafex is composed of powerful characters, but you would be much better off simply playing them independently and not using the datafex. Using them as the court turns them into two things they should never be and that is slow moving and defensive. I wouldn’t take the court of phoenix court if it came with a 500-point reduction – that is if the characters were bought at a discount for being situated in the court. Compared to other datafexes like the seer council were Eldrad is join by a few farseers and warlocks and they all gain the option of the augment ability plus 3 Strategic assets each priced at 250 points you can see how the phoenix court falls on its face.

AssassinAya wrote:Out of all the horrible imbalanced things in 40k, it's already pretty balanced is all i'm saying. Time could be spent better thinking up how to work out fixes for some of the other crap things in the Eldar army, instead of massacreing an already powerful and feared unit.

I was not arguing against the rules for the standard avatar in comparison to his pricing but his role in the game and the inconsistency that is caused by having the forge world model play under the same rules as its homunculus standard version (and that is the case whether your using the Phoenix court or not). I don’t think my rules “massacre” any thing, instead they simply provide eldar players to use of the avatar as a centerpiece in their apocalypse army as it should be, both in terms background and the model’s appearance. Under normal rules the avatar, the core of the entire craftworld and god in which every single warrior is linked to, could be slain with a single strength D hit, or get insta killed or turned into a spawn, and so on.

If you disagree my avatar due to the game mechanics, actually rules, or how it fits into the background then feel free to express what you are directly at odds with and why. This forum encourages people to experiment with rule creation and seek feedback. I you feel there are areas of the game that are in desperate need of correction you are free to make your own articles or post in the proposed rule section. But to simple dismiss my suggestion as “Massacring” and “GWS already has rules for this”, these are blanket statements that can be used just as easily to tear down 85% of the proposed rule posted in on Dakka. You might be happy with the current avatar, I am not. That is why I felt the need to create my article – that fact that I am not the first person to attempt to create rules for the avatar (search Proposed Rules) suggests that I am not alone in that opinion.

Are all of these rules real?

Easily one of the best articles I've read in a while, well done Grunt13.
Well thought out, a good explanation behind your thinking combining "cool" with tactical considerations rather then the usual nonsense. Liked the rules overall, I'd tweak one or two namely:

Wailing Doom: Can be fired in shooting phase.
Range 24” S:8 AP:1 Assault 3 Melta

I picture the WD more as a multishot lance style weapon then a blast.

Possibly give him Rage as a rule but allow him to Leadership test to control it.
I picture the Avatar here being full of ultra violent rage and hate for his enemies and when he enters battle almost becoming uncontrollable. However, I think having him being led about in an Apoc game by a deffkopta dosent work dynamic-wise so he can Ld test against it (will most likely pass).

I would also give him the furious charge rule to represent the WD giving him +1 str, it is his main combat weapon and would fit in nicely with the fluff.

My Forge World Avatar rules represents the avatar being used in an engagement that was foreseen centuries before by the farseers of the craftworld. During this time the Avatar is nurtured and coaxed by the eldar - the avatar reaches across the webway to other avatars and borrows some of their essence. While this does not reconstitute the war god to his pre-sundered form, it does augment his abilities greatly. When the time for the battle emerges the avatar has swelled with the essences of many avatars throughout the galaxy.

I felt it was important to create a sensibly explanation on how there are two different rules for what is essentially the same entity.

Excellent stuff.

Fascinating read re: the test combats. Even at double the points costs the Nightbringer won over 50%. Any ideas behind this?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again well done with the effort put in and generally well thought out and balanced rules.

Ratius wrote:Fascinating read re: the test combats. Even at double the points costs the Nightbringer won over 50%. Any ideas behind this?

Being S10 and ignoring the Avatar's saves is most likely the cause; whilst the Nightbringer strikes second against the Exalted Avatar, he still has 5 attacks that are hitting on 4s and wounding on 2s with no saves allowed, so causing probably 2/3 wounds. The EA has 6 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s, with the NB getting a 4+ invul, meaning the avatar deals 1 wound. The Avatar would need 5 rounds of combat to kill the NB, whereas the NB only needs about 3-4 to kill the Avatar.