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Alright, I've been having some interesting conversations about how the Doomwheel works, so I was curious what the great minds of Dakka thought.

1. The Doomwheel does not (normally) charge. The rules state that the DW (DoomWheel) moves like a chariot but moves a randomly rolled amount. The only time that Charge is mentioned in the rules is under "Out of Control" on the misfire chart. At the begining of each round of combat where it did'nt charge it does a Grind attack. Does that mean that a DW can swerve around like a non-charging chariot, hit a unit in the flank (doing impact hits) and then doing a grind attack?

2. The DW's Zzzzap! attack requires you to roll for each shot, or is it once? The Zzzzap! rules states in the second paragraph to roll for each bolt. The third paragraph states to roll once for the stregnth for all the bolts that turn. So which is it? I think rolling for each shot causes an excessive chance of misfire, and the wording of the second paragraph seems to indicate you are rolling for distance since everything else in the paragraph is about the range of the bolts and target selection.

As far as I'm aware, if you compulsory movement into someone, it counts as a charge that the enemy gets their typical charge reactions from, and is resolved as normal. "Grind" attacks, to my knowledge, are done in later rounds of combat.

The Zzzzap! I cannot answer.

1. The Doomwheel moves 3d6" in a straight line in your choice of direction during the compulsory move phase. If you happen to run into someone while doing so, it counts as a charge and the opposing unit gets its standard charge reactions from a terror-inducing model. Grind attacks are done similarly to impact hits, but only in turns that the Doomwheel has not just charged (basically, whenever it has been charged or after that first round of combat when it does charge).

2. You roll for Zzzap!'s strength once, but you roll to wound individually with all three bolts. At least, that's how I recall it without having the book right in front of me...

Kirbinator wrote:1. The Doomwheel moves 3d6" in a straight line in your choice of direction during the compulsory move phase. If you happen to run into someone while doing so, it counts as a charge and the opposing unit gets its standard charge reactions from a terror-inducing model. Grind attacks are done similarly to impact hits, but only in turns that the Doomwheel has not just charged (basically, whenever it has been charged or after that first round of combat when it does charge).

2. You roll for Zzzap!'s strength once, but you roll to wound individually with all three bolts. At least, that's how I recall it without having the book right in front of me...

1. The Abomination says that it moves in a straight line and that if you hit a unit it counts as charging, the DW has no such language and seems to avoid saying this. It moves 3d6" in the compulsory movement phase, moves like a chariot, and if you run into something it does impact hits. Charging is only mentioned in the misfire chart as part of being out of control.

2. Yes, I agree.

Kirbinator wrote:1. The Doomwheel moves 3d6" in a straight line in your choice of direction during the compulsory move phase. If you happen to run into someone while doing so, it counts as a charge and the opposing unit gets its standard charge reactions from a terror-inducing model. .

No, it moves like a chariot and may therefore pivot as many times as it likes when it moves. It must declare a charge as NO permission is given for the DW to contact a unit except via a Charge declaration OR out of control result.

However it technically can never complete a charge as it cannot move during "move chargers", only during compulsory moves, which is why the DW is a complete mess, rules wise...

Yes, for those of you who argue strict RAW, the doomwheel can never be in combat, because it never says anything about charging, and so cannot charge, just be charged. Sorry Skaven players

It can be in combat when it rolls an out of control result

Why is there a question? The RAW says the Doomwheel moves using the chariot rules... except for the differences listed in the specific rules for the Doomwheel.

SO:

JUST LIKE A CHARIOT it must declare a charge, wheel once, and move in a straight line. HOWEVER, it does so in the compulsory moves phase, and might fail due to 'not rolling enough movement.'

Well, there are alot of questions. Some think it just has to move into combat, some think it needs to declare a charge, some think that it CAN"T declare a charge because chargers are moved in the "move chargers" part of the movement phase. Do you get to double the distance rolled on the dice "just like a chariot" gets to double it's movement? There are a lot of questions that need answering.

Arion wrote:Do you get to double the distance rolled on the dice "just like a chariot" gets to double it's movement?

That falls under the 'differences listed here' clause of my post. The doomwheel moves as far as the dice say it does, no doubling for charge or marches.

Of course, the difference between 'declare the charge' and 'move into combat which counts as charge' is the biggest vague spot in the rules I can see, I could go along with that... so long as we agreed in advance that we were going to do it that way.

(Since I play Skaven too, it would be fair to me whichever way we do it. But I am inclined to use the normal charge rules when I intend to charge with the doomwheel. It just seems to fit the RAW better.)

in my opinion the doom wheel works just like the abomination as most compusury things it chooses a direction and roll the dice for distance if its distance hits a unit then it causes it will cause its impact hits during combat buy during the turn it will cause its bolts on that unit then during combat it does impact hits, grinding down the foe and also then the crew

I would say it doesn´t move like an abomination because they removed the move in a straight line from the text. that means it can roll around woods and the like rather than taking like 3 turns to roll around a woods safely.

I have heard that because it does not move in a straight line you can potentially roll around the side of a unit and flank charge them. This is probably possible as per the RAW however it would seem to be an error by GW and when charging it moves straight (like every other unit in the game).

so overall I think that when charging doomwheel moves straight however that could be in any direction but when it moves it can roll around in circles if it wants to. may not be exactly as RAW but from looking at how the rest of the game works it seems accurate.

You can never hit ta facing you didnt start in and count as charging - see the second BRB FAQ which makes this abundantly clear.

It does NOT move like an abomination, as it "moves like a chariot with the following exceptions" - this means it CAN pivot as it moves, and it does *not* have permission to contact units and count as charging except when rolling an Out of Control result. As such it *must* declare charges as normal.

So no rolling through woods, shaking off the D3 S4 hits as irrelevant, and hitting units on the other side that you can't see.

my version seems much simpler and no one at my LGS minds, i will bring this up to them and see thier opinions on the matter how ever i suggest everyone else does the same

Simpler yes, but it ignores the entire "the DW is a chriot...." part - if they wanted it to only move in straight lines they could have c&pd the rules for the HPA easily enough!

eh, ill ask arouund on some other sites


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so if anyone knows the blue table painting site and thier broadcast on you tube ive asked shawn the one who runs it all and he says he interprets it as though it rolls the dice and if it runs into somthing it counts as its charge, because its movment is in the compulsary and so its before charges are said, in which it cannot charge wats so ever

The idea that since it moves in the compulsary moves phase and therefor cannot declare a charge since it cannot move when charges are declared is an interesting point.

There really are valid arguments on both sides of the issue.

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Actually, looking in the BRB first you declare charges and reactions and then in the compulsary phase you move fleeing troops and what not, and then move chargers in the movement phase. So I suppose you can declare a charge and then move in the Compulsary moves but I guess that a failed charge would still move the Doomwheel its full rolled movement.

Thats a hard one, because although it says it moves like a chariot (allowing 1 pivot), the Rolling Doom rule states "should a Doomwheel come into contact with a unit (friend or foe), the doomwheel will come to a stop, causing impact hits". Thats covered under the compulsory movement phase random movement. Add in you can't declare a charge against a friendly unit, it makes you wonder.
Against that though, Grinding Down the Foe rule states "the doomwheel itself does a Grind Attack at the beginning of each round of combat in which it did not charge". The Abomination entry states " If the Abomination's movement is sufficient to take it into an enemy unit then it counts as charging" - the doomwheel doesn't have that entry in it, but it still has the same random movement that says it it comes into contact with an enemy or friendly unit, it causes impact hits (which would be charging).

Poorly written, I would expect a FAQ on it - our area plays it as a charge which has 360 line of sight.

Here's what I think would make the most sense:

The Doomwheel should indeed be able to get into combat. It being unable to do so would just be silly.

The conflicts seem to be with the lack of the word "charge", the term "moves as a chariot", and with the 3d6" movement value.

Since it's move is in the Compulsory phase, I doubt it can (or has to) declare a charge. While it moves as a chariot, that means, more specifically, that it maneuvers like a chariot. Declaring a charge is not an aspect of how a chariot moves.
The problem is with the ability to pivot more than once. While it's only fair to give the Wheel a chance to charge, I doubt it should be able to flank charge everybody when its in their front arc (which, I suppose, would be legal, given it's all compulsory movement), but how difficult is this to do, anyway? What do you have to roll to get a flank charge off, on average? Wouldn't you get charged in the flank if you failed to do this? Maybe its balanced after all, but maybe not.

All in all, I would say that there are not enough solid rules to make a RAW call on the Doomwheel. This is a toughy.

First things first: Can people please STOP suggesting that somehow it can charge units in the flank as it can pivot more than once? I've covered this more than once - it can never happen.

Read BRB FAQ Part 2, where this is explicitly denied - units that move via compulsory movement can still ONLY charge units in the arc they start in. Same as any other unit....

The reason for "must declare a charge" is that there is no way for it to enter combat without it - there is a line telling you what happens IF it makes contact with a unit, however this does not give you permission to do so. THerefore you are only left with the usual mechanism for contacting units - charge declaration.

Moving in the compulsory move does not actually require anything except that you move in compulsory moves - the BRB does not make any other requirements on you than that.

So the simplest solution I can see is:

1) Declare charges as normal, except when "Out of Control" - so no charging into flanks when you are in the front, you must have LOS, etc.

2) Single pivot allowed during charge move, as for all chariots

3) No doubling of distance, just 3D6" move as usual

4) Use the 3D6" for stand and shoot determination

5) move in compulsory move instead of "move chargers"

This requires the least changes, most closely follows the "moves as a chariot except..." and only requires you to ignor it *technically* not being able to charge as it does not have any movement in the move chargers phase.

I agree with Nosferatu on this, it makes the most sense.

I was actually wondering if it was intended to move as a charging chariot all the time. The description says that the Doomwheel is barely in the control of the driver and this sort of movement wold makes sense (although it would be rather inconvenient). I'm not saying the rules actually say this, it's just a thought.

Looked up the FAQ and Nosferatu is correct - the doomwheel has to be able to legally charge the unit to be able to do so - otherwise stops 1" away. I guess you'd declare the charge with it in the compulsory movement phase, allowing the enemy their charge reaction. The abomination must be the exception to the rule as it has different wording that allows it to ignore the normal charge rules.

Ah. Nosferatu, I was under the impression that you were claiming that chariots can't charge in the flank, which left the question of the Doomwheel being compulsory, but see what you're sayin' know.

It seems like it would have been a lot easier to say that the Doomwheel "counts as charging" when its random movement brings it into btb.

Does the Doomwheel only move half of its 3d6" on a failed charge, then? I doubt it, since the movement isn't doubled, but maybe.

And wouldn't you declare the charge in the "declare charges" phase, still? It barely matters, but I'm sure there's a way someone could twist this 'round to gain some advantage.

With as many things they are going to have to FAQ/errata for the Skaven book, I wouldn't be suprised if they add in that part as "counts as charging".
Its a random movement, so it would move it's full distance regardless of failed charge or not.
The declaring charge portion should go in the compulsory phase (much like having a frenzied unit having multiple units in range and then declaring which one it would be charging).
If the doomwheel breaks a unit in combat, it still rolls 3d6 for it's overrun/pursuit distance right?
Personally I'm not sold on the thing unless they add in that it's warp lightning shots don't allow AS like a warp lightning cannon, but then again, I'm fond of shooting cannons now

No reason it cannot declare charges as normal, and just move in compulsory moves before other chargers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No reason it cannot declare charges as normal, and just move in compulsory moves before other chargers. This means you have a consistent approach for all chargers (Frenzied units declare in "declare charges", just AFTER all other charges - they do not declare in compulsory)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) Declare charges as normal, except when "Out of Control" - so no charging into flanks when you are in the front, you must have LOS, etc.

2) Single pivot allowed during charge move, as for all chariots

3) No doubling of distance, just 3D6" move as usual

4) Use the 3D6" for stand and shoot determination

5) move in compulsory move instead of "move chargers"

Bingo, that's how I've ruled it. And note that terror tests happen at step 1 too.

There was a dude at the LGS playing it with 360 degree charges ala the HPA, but the chariot factor (and lack of any of the HPA's movement text) guts that argument IMO.

- Salvage