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I've always had this thing for comparing HQs, usually with a general disregard to point values, however. So right now, my question is who is a better choice, Kharn, or Abaddon? Answer first regardless of points, then considering points. If you have any 'perfect situation' for either, please share.

Right now I'm going to say Abaddon. WS7 & T/S8 with two CCWs and a Storm Bolter is pretty hard to top. All of that with a 2+/4++ just seems too awesome to me.

But considering the point values, Kharn offers a lot of punch for his cost. It's a fairly close, but imo, Kharn is better in this regard.

Ideally, I think that Abaddon should be put with Terminators in a Landraider, or teleported.

Kharn should be put with hordes of his Berserker kin as close to the front lines as possible. This way, they get to the fight first, and he'll have hordes of well-protected friends to dispense his 'betrayer' attacks to.


What do you think, Dakka? Kharn or Abaddon?

Kharn is usually better from what I've seen, though that might just be that Abbadon always fails for our group.

What's the point of disregarding points.
That's the whole balancer to what you get.

At the very least you get alot more of a durable package with Abby.
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Kharn IMO.
He can get in a rhino and does not require another 250ish points down the gutter.

Kharn: He's cheaper. Cheaper here means more points into the army. The army is what carries the game, the characters should support the army, not take away from it.

Both Abby and Kharn's weapons can backfire...but Abby is the one that can completely not have any attacks, while Kharn only does bad things on 1's, but still retains his other attacks.

WS 7 vs. hitting on 2's, then you have str 8 vs. str 5/6(MC penetration)...their offensive abilities are generally similar.

Abby has better range on his gun, but Kharn has a stronger bite.

Obviously Abby is tougher to kill, but that's to be expected for the price tag.
Though, Abby can't sweeping advance, and can only be delivered by DSing or LandRaider or on foot, none of those are ideal IMO.

Abaddon

Abaddon

Abaddon

Abby doens't have 2 CCW, he's a got a S8 Demonic Lighting claw. +d6 attacks at I6. For anything with a toughness value, you can't go wrong with the man. Abby is an eternal warrior. 2+/4+. Most armies wish they could take him.

Some people advocate taking Abby + Khorne 'zergs w/ fist champion. I found this unit to be a little too much over kill, losing some survivability. Put Abby with Plague Marines and enjoy your new found beat stick.

Meh, More points than a Land Raider and he goes stupid 1/6 of the time in combet......if he even reaches it.

I play Chaos and I have no wish to touch him with a 7 foot pole.

I guess it more depends on what points we are talking about...anything under 2000 is asking for a largish oppurtunity cost.

Kharn or Abaddon? Both!

But no, I'm kidding. No points value, I say go Abaddon. Points value included, still Abaddon. Lash Sorcerer beats both, but Lash Sorcerer + Abaddon may actually be better than twin lash sorcerers.

Worth noting that Kharn's immune to Psyker powers. Kind of a big deal on occasion.

I just purchased Abaddon's model and plan on working him into my 1500 point list.

I think Abaddon can support a small army and I also think he can change the game if used correctly.

Kharn is good, don't get me wrong...and if you use him all sneaky-like, he won't even scratch your own units...however, he's not durable enough.

My vote is for Abaddon.

Sanctjud wrote:What's the point of disregarding points.
That's the whole balancer to what you get.

Mostly because I'm not fully convinced the point values are always balanced, but also because sometimes there are certain HQs people will or will not take no matter what. Abaddon is far too expensive to be useful in the end, imo, unless you stick him with even MORE expensive things. He's a good unit, but a point sink. If he didn't cost so much, of course I'd take him over kharn, but some people will take some HQs regardless of point value. So that's what I'm looking for; who is the best, then who is the better value? It's somewhat obvious here, but it's always worth getting a consensus.

I hate to be a stick in the mud, but the question should really be "why take Kharn or Abaddon instead of a Daemon Prince?"

Unless you are going for a themed list or you have a dislike of DPs, point for point, a Warptime winged DP offers you a better value.

To the question at hand though, I think the biggest problems is delivery. Abaddon can only be reliably delivered in a Land Raider. This effectively doubles his price tag. Now its nice of Kharn can hop into a Raider but he works just fine from a Rhino. The big point difference has to be taken into consideration because that could easily be another troop squad or some Obliterators or 2-3 squad of Termicide, all of which are probably more important then Abaddon's bloated killing power.

@minigun762:

Agreed, all of it.

@crazypsyko666:

Mostly because I'm not fully convinced the point values are always balanced,

It may not be perfect, but it’s the most objective scale of value we have.

but also because sometimes there are certain HQs people will or will not take no matter what.

And there is a reason for it. I’m starting to just see Fanboyizm for Abby now. People don’t take him because he’s expensive, they could get other stuff… people actually play with points…some people don’t want to have to use a Land Raider, are uninterested in Deepstriking or footslogging when they know that they will most likely not get into combat with their ‘more expensive than a loyalist land raider on cocaine’ combat monster…

If some things didn't cost so much, of course we’d take them over other over-priced stuff

I fixed it for you… and “duh”.

No argument, Abby is expensive…it should change…whoop-di-do. Best thing is to wish really hard for a new edition. Other than that… he’ll be what he costs and people will use or not use him to good or not good results, much like everything else in our codex and practically all of 40K. Nothing is "perfect"; we work with what we have.

who is the best, then who is the better value?

Neither are best. Neither are a better value as you’ve disregarded the primary method of valuing each objectively.

it's always worth getting a consensus.

Tell me…what is the point of this consensus? Why is it worth it?

Would you be happier if he was cheaper… bring it to the Proposed Rules section.
This is not a ‘Tactics’ topic if that is all you are looking for the consensus that Abby is an expensive combat mofo who needs more points dumped into him to make the most of his abilities and that he is less, more, or equal to Kharn in offensive ability and is totally more survivable…

Abby really should be placed in a deamon possessed Land Raider with 4 other terminators. If Abby is not in CC Abby is not doing his job.

I think Kharne goes better with squads of possessed than zerkers. Buy a couple of 9 man squads of possessed squads, pick one that gets a random bonus that you like, and stick Kharne with that squad in a land raider. The 5+ invo and large numbers will help against Kharne's betrayer attacks. Personally I would buy the squad an Icon of Tzeentch so they have a 4+ invo because they will end up taking a lot of enemy fire.

@schadenfreude:

Problems:
1.Termies are not fearless.
2.You roll for Daemonkin AFTER deployment... so the possessed and Kharn are already in a LR, before you know what you roll for that squad.

Else, I like the idea of Kharn with possessed, but sadly... the whole packe there does waste Fleet (if Kharn stays with them) and Scouts.

I put it in tactics because I couldn't think of a better place.

Despite all of your annoying "duh"s and "whoop-de-friggin-doos", we seem to be in agreement.

Sorry, I'm not annoyed at you.
I'm annoyed at why Abby just comes up so frequently...

because hes a monster, and does his job very well.

sorry if you haven't figured out how to do this.

zachwho wrote:because hes a monster, and does his job very well.

sorry if you haven't figured out how to do this.

He does his job well if you can get him into combat with something worthwhile. This means a Land Raider for transport and having some kind of expensive target to assault.
Compare this to a Daemon Prince who can move around the board just fine on his own and is alot cheaper.

I just don't think Abaddon has a role in a game outside of Apocalyse or some special tournament/mission.

This is a perfect example of where people dont understand the concept of opportunity cost. Sure, Abaddon can slaughter things in CC. Great...except after youre through with him, you wont have much outside of him and his squad. One squad cannot win games for you. Youll either be lacking heavy support or troops (or both) because of a 750 point squad.

@Zachwho:

How productive, why don't you actually add something useful.
Maybe put down the way you use it to best effect and wow us with your mastery of Abbadon or Kharn or both.

@mingun762:

There you go, no matter how many Abby topics comes up, that's what it ends up as.
And it's the same speech I have.

Basically, he's a taste issue, actual tactics involves a one-trick pony list.

His offensive power is rarely needed in a Chaos Space Marine list as almost everything is geared for combat already.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Night Lords,

Yep, that's what I've (at least) meant to say already, but you worded it much better.

It's not productive to talk about Abby vs. Kharn if you take out the points cost as then there is no standard scale, whether you like it or not.

Even when that is missing, they both have pros and cons... but when you bring it back to REALITY, the balanced scales drop in favor of Kharn for the Utilitarian, Economist, and Risk Averse.

Sanctjud wrote:@schadenfreude:

Problems:
1.Termies are not fearless.
2.You roll for Daemonkin AFTER deployment... so the possessed and Kharn are already in a LR, before you know what you roll for that squad.

Else, I like the idea of Kharn with possessed, but sadly... the whole packe there does waste Fleet (if Kharn stays with them) and Scouts.

Termies are not fearless, but they can rock. Personally I think abby with 4 slaneesh twin lightling claw termies would have a leadership problem, but would totally rock in CC.

Doh didn't know that about the deamonkin roll and that makes scouts really suck since you can't outflank possessed wiht scouts if they don't gain scout until after deployment.

It still could work, but would take 2 squads of possessed, and potential transport juggling on the first turn. Put Kharne in the land raider and a squad of possessed near each access hatch, and then pick which squad you want him with. Then get screwed over by your dice as 1 squad gains scouts and the other gains fleet. Such is the way if your field 2 units of possessed CSMs

Both Kharne and Abbadon are great HQ choices IMO.

I have much more experience using Kharne as I played a World Eaters army for the longest time.

I've used Abbadon a few times. Hate his figure, but he has nice stats.

Basically stick Abby in a land raider with demonic possession and some terminators and send them in to tear up the biggest and baddest things in your opponent's army.

I usually stuck Kharne in a land raider with demonic possession and a squad of berzerkers to do about the same thing. Abby does it a little better but at greater points cost.

Also Kharne has a much nicer model.

@schadenfreude:
I'm just saying possessed are highly functional and 'worth' their heavy priced tag unneeding of a character to join them.

@augustus5:
True, and each iteration whether it be abby + termies, Kharn + zerkers, or Abby + Kharn + flavor of the month in a LR, it's one big basket.
I just wanted to note that. It works really well or really poorly, and at least in my meta, poorly as anti-AV14 is something anyone planning all-comers will consider.