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Basically the campaign involves a large continent made of hex tiles, with special buildings, collecting points to build 500 and 250 point forces, it's pretty much right out of the rule book, or at least parts of it are, heh.

The largest force you start with is your Headquarters force which is 1000pts. I'll be facing Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, IG, Tau, and Tyranids not in any specific order, we just move around the map based on some special rules and smash our armies into one another. Here's what I came up with to help me dominate.

HQ
Daemon Prince, Wings, MoS, LoS 155
Daemon Prince, Wings, MoS, Warptime 160

Reasons: Lash is obviously super powerful so why the heck not, with the initiative 6 Warptime Prince to back him up they make a devastating team in general since they usually go first and melt the faces of whatever they run into.

Elite
5 Chosen, 4 Meltaguns, Rhino 165
5 Chosen, 4 Meltaguns, Rhino 165

Reasons: They have infiltrate and I need a way to get in close to the shooty armies and tear them a new one with the meltaguns. Add rhinos for mobility in case my opponents deploy in a big middle clump, I gotta get there fast when I outflank so I can suicide melta those under-priced, God-like Leman Russes.

Troops
5 CSM, Flamer, Rhino 115
5 CSM, Flamer 80
5 CSM, Flamer 80
5 CSM, Flamer 80

Reasons: 4 scoring units for the 2 objective type missions is just really nice. Added the flamers for horde smashing and dealing with pesky clumps of shooty infantry hiding in cover/buildings. Sometimes these guys will be riding in the Chosens rhinos, it all depends on who I'm playing, deployment/mission type, blah blah blah.

Thoughts, comments, flames?

DPs are ok.
Just don't rely on lash and you are all set.

Squad sizes: I'm not one for Minimum sized squads...

Chosen: Infiltrating rules are real strict. Barring idiotic opponent moves, you'll never get first turn melta bonus die.

Outflanking meltas can work, but IMO it's of limited benefit at small points and with less congestion on the board.

CSM: foot flamers don't work.
There are other special weapons available...
Chosen will prob. be outflanking most of the time. You don't have great benefits infiltrating and if you start on the board... hell you are better off getting a more formal troop unit instead, or havocs.

slickpcm wrote:Basically the campaign involves a large continent made of hex tiles, with special buildings, collecting points to build 500 and 250 point forces, it's pretty much right out of the rule book, or at least parts of it are, heh.

The largest force you start with is your Headquarters force which is 1000pts. I'll be facing Orks, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, IG, Tau, and Tyranids not in any specific order, we just move around the map based on some special rules and smash our armies into one another. Here's what I came up with to help me dominate.

HQ
Daemon Prince, Wings, MoS, LoS 155
Daemon Prince, Wings, MoS, Warptime 160

Reasons: Lash is obviously super powerful so why the heck not, with the initiative 6 Warptime Prince to back him up they make a devastating team in general since they usually go first and melt the faces of whatever they run into.

Elite
5 Chosen, 4 Meltaguns, Rhino 165
5 Chosen, 4 Meltaguns, Rhino 165

Reasons: They have infiltrate and I need a way to get in close to the shooty armies and tear them a new one with the meltaguns. Add rhinos for mobility in case my opponents deploy in a big middle clump, I gotta get there fast when I outflank so I can suicide melta those under-priced, God-like Leman Russes.

Troops
5 CSM, Flamer, Rhino 115
5 CSM, Flamer 80
5 CSM, Flamer 80
5 CSM, Flamer 80

Reasons: 4 scoring units for the 2 objective type missions is just really nice. Added the flamers for horde smashing and dealing with pesky clumps of shooty infantry hiding in cover/buildings. Sometimes these guys will be riding in the Chosens rhinos, it all depends on who I'm playing, deployment/mission type, blah blah blah.

Thoughts, comments, flames?

Boo to 5 man CSM squads. There is no reason not to make these into full 10 man squads the way they should be used. I would also remove the Chosen and blend those weapons into the rest of your Troops.
Something like 3 x 10 CSM squads with Flamer/Melta/Power Fist/Rhino would be much more powerful and present a much stronger base to your army.

I am not a huge fan of Lash, I think its overrated now that most armies are mechanized. Having said that, if you really want to use it you should double up on it.

That would cost 720 pts, I've only got 685 to work with ... sad face.

What about...

DP, MoS, wings
DP, MoS, wings
10 CSM, IoCG, 2 Meltas, Fist, Rhino.
10 CSM, IoCG, 2 Meltas, Fist, Rhino.
7 Noise Marines, Champ, Power Weapon, DoomSiren, Rhino.

Retains 2 MoS princes, a NM for Slaanesh theme.
Then 20 undivided to back them up.

slickpcm wrote:That would cost 720 pts, I've only got 685 to work with ... sad face.

You could still make that work. One squad doesn't get a Power Fist Champion, now you're up 5 points (if I did my math right).

The take home message is CSMs should be used in 10 man squads with 2 specials 95% of the time. If you go with anything else, you'd better have a good reason for it.

minigun762 wrote:
The take home message is CSMs should be used in 10 man squads with 2 specials 95% of the time. If you go with anything else, you'd better have a good reason for it.

I would say 99% of the time.
Wanna-be Spiky Tactical Squads don't count

I thought the IoCG only gave Ld 10 which is the same thing a champ has, why would I take that? I like the bringing Noise Marines for my Slaanesh themed army by the way. They are purple and pink with metallic gold trim.

And I hear you on the 10 man CSM squads, just wanted to add a different tactical flavor than the rhino rush but if you guys say it's not practical I believe you. If I go all 10 man how would I deal with the lack of long range weaponry to suppress shooty armies?

slickpcm wrote:I thought the IoCG only gave Ld 10 which is the same thing a champ has, why would I take that? I like the bringing Noise Marines for my Slaanesh themed army by the way. They are purple and pink with metallic gold trim.

And I hear you on the 10 man CSM squads, just wanted to add a different tactical flavor than the rhino rush but if you guys say it's not practical I believe you. If I go all 10 man how would I deal with the lack of long range weaponry to suppress shooty armies?

IoCG allows rerolls of your LD tests. LD9 rerolled is actually much better then straight LD10. I think its statistically equivalent to LD11 (which you can't have). So if you're looking for a LD bonus, IoCG > naked Champion.

As for the long range shooting, you can do it 2 ways. 1) Ram your army down their throat using more threats then they can deal with. 2) Termicide units supported by Defilers/Obliterators/Predators/Havocks. Of course the best way to do it is a combination of 1+2.

You mean like droppin the old combi-plas termi unit in the middle of their army for target saturation so I can get my rhinos there I assume. Unfortunately that's not really an option with the 1000pt limitation. I think a 5 man combi-plas termie unit is 200 pts right? That would cripple me even if I dropped them in and blew up something expensive. How capable are 3 10 man CSM squads with a meltagun and a PFist at mopping up about 850 pts of an army once they're rhinos get within 12 inches to drop them off and let them charge/melt tanks/pfist monsters and other cc elites?

slickpcm wrote: How capable are 3 10 man CSM squads with a meltagun and a PFist at mopping up about 850 pts of an army once they're rhinos get within 12 inches to drop them off and let them charge/melt tanks/pfist monsters and other cc elites?

I would say very capable. Basic CSMs are some of the very best troops in the game and with that loadout, you're able to take on anything from a Land Raider to Terminators to Daemon Princes to Ork hordes and stand a good chance of coming out on top. Be aggressive with them, get that charge in whenever possible. Use your Daemon Princes to kill their big armor or tanks when you can and support your CSMs afterwards.

My personal favorite CSM loadout is the Flamer/Melta/Power Fist/IoCG/Rhino combo. Comes to 250 points each squad but I don't feel bad throwing this against almost anything else in the game.

Also, Daemon Princes make for a good bullet sponge as well since many of the same weapons they'll use on your Rhinos can/should be used on Daemon Princes and with 4 wounds and hopefully a decent cover save, its difficult for them to kill of your DPs and still threaten your Rhinos.

What would you say to swapping out one of the 250 pt CSM squads with a 220pt Land Raider? The target saturation btw a Land Raider and 2 DPs would guarantee the 2 CSM squads get in close where they can charge/use their meltaguns.

slickpcm wrote:What would you say to swapping out one of the 250 pt CSM squads with a 220pt Land Raider? The target saturation btw a Land Raider and 2 DPs would guarantee the 2 CSM squads get in close where they can charge/use their meltaguns.

At 1k games? No, I wouldn't do it personally. You're trading 10 wounds of scoring unit for 1 big target. You're going to gamble that the opponent has nothing to deal with a Land Raider at that small of a game, but its a bad gamble for most armies. Even in your own army, 2 Melta/Power Fist CSMs or Daemon Princes would be viable counters and are either cheaper or multi-purpose. Really if you're already using 2 Daemon Princes and 3 Rhinos, you're going to have alot of target saturation. The only other thing you could do is drop a CSM squad and take a Vindicator/Predator/Defiler or something like that.
Is it better? I'm not sure. My playstyle revolves around going troop heavy and its worked so far. Other people like the fancier weapons, little more risk/reward compared to CSMs.

I guess I've just had bad experiences with my rhinos eating alot of Lascannon fire or gettin smashed by Powerklaws or Bright Lances or the other 50 million things that can take rhinos out without even trying. However, my friends and I do joke about how I'm a one rolling machine and how they always seem to get a few more sixes than normal when they play me. Maybe I'm just paranoid from the constant beatings.

slickpcm wrote:I guess I've just had bad experiences with my rhinos eating alot of Lascannon fire or gettin smashed by Powerklaws or Bright Lances or the other 50 million things that can take rhinos out without even trying. However, my friends and I do joke about how I'm a one rolling machine and how they always seem to get a few more sixes than normal when they play me. Maybe I'm just paranoid from the constant beatings.

Rhinos will die. Thats what they do. However before they die what you're hoping to do is have them move you up the board atleast once and protect your troops from 1 round of incoming fire. If they do that, then they are worth the 35 points. Hell if they survive, they make great mobile cover.

Typical Rhino tactics involve hiding them behind cover during deployment. If you get first turn you can either bounce to another piece of cover or run up 12" and pop smoke. Some people leapfrog their Rhinos, popping smoke on Rhino A and hiding Rhino B behind A, so it still gets a cover save then leap frogging next turn.
If you don't get first turn, you should be safe behind cover. And if your Rhino does, so what (you shouldn't have your troops deployed inside it yet). You just start running your Troops up the board behind the rest of your active Rhinos.

Remember that alot of people load up on fast moving Melta squads like Vendetta Vets or Termicide. These units will fry a Land Raider just as easily as a Rhino so it really doesn't offer more protection.

Ok then my next question is, using your tactics, how do I hide from an IG army full of ordnance and how do I grab ahold of pesky fast moving eldar/dark eldar? Both these shoot down my rhinos really easily and the outflanking Chosen seem to be my only way of grabbing ahold of the little buggers.

slickpcm wrote:Ok then my next question is, using your tactics, how do I hide from an IG army full of ordnance and how do I grab ahold of pesky fast moving eldar/dark eldar? Both these shoot down my rhinos really easily and the outflanking Chosen seem to be my only way of grabbing ahold of the little buggers.

Against IG, you usually have to take the bold/aggressive approach and try to get into HtH with them as fast as you can. The good news is that Ordnance is not the most reliabe way to kill Rhinos since you have to factor in the scattering and even if you lose 2/3 of your army, one squad of CSMs that multi-charge some tanks/infantry can often turn the tide all by themselves. Against your DP will be key here, since they can't be insta-killed and have an Inv save, it will require a fair amount of firepower to take them down and if he doesn't, a single DP can wreck an IG army usually. The key here is target saturation. You will take losses but give him too many things to kill before you hit him in the face with a Chainsword.

Against Eldar, they are pesky to say the least. The best Chaos counter to them is a mix of Obliterators and Termicide, however its hard to afford these in 1k game. Really you're going to have to rely on corralling his Vehicles and blasting them down with your Melta. Either that or chasing them with your Daemon Prince.

You suffer through it and maximize cover saves.

Chaos isn't a mystery to anyone.

Eldar:
Stay relatively close and central when you start.
They will start setting up traps 2 turns after stuff comes in (if they go reserve).

Focus on one flank, but stay relatively loose.

DE:
Similar to Eldar, but less need to move + run to get some speed, you can down them well enough with bolters and plasma guns at standing and shooting 24”.

IG:
Approach through cover, CC is not really where they want to be. If outside of a tank, spread out. Have ranged elements to silence enemy ordinance, you don’t need to kill it outright.

Outflanking Chosen is hit or miss with Eldar/DE, while vs. IG depends highly if it’s a gun line.
Gun line it will do well 2/3 of the time, not a gun line and your mileage drops.
The squad size generally means they are guaranteed to go down. At least with more bodies you have some glimmer of hope to last past the first pop.