Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So he would get a number of attacks equal to a base of 3 (2 natural, 1 TWC) + 1 for charging with his Thunder hammer (at str10?) and one extra attack at str8 from the servo arm, all at Initiative 1.

(On the charge; )
4 str10 I1 attacks, thunderhammer

1 str8 I1 attack, servo arm

Correct?

S9 I1 attacks with the Thunderhammer. See the call out box on page 7 in the Characteristic Profiles section.

Whether or not the TWulf mount increases base stats or is a modifier is an often disputed topic.

The rulebook would say it's a modifier, the SW codex TWulf and Twulf special character (Canis) would suggest that it's a base increase.

It increases the base stat. It is not a bonus like Furious Charge. He is S10.

So yes, Razerous, you are correct.

You "add +1 Strength ... to the profile" and then you double the strength for the thunderhammer. At that point you have the exact example on page seven. Page seven has no concern for timing or whether those modifiers are "permanent" or in the model's profile.

Yeah that is one of those that I defintiely disagree with as then it would mean it works differently than everything else in the game.

solkan wrote:You "add +1 Strength ... to the profile" and then you double the strength for the thunderhammer. At that point you have the exact example on page seven. Page seven has no concern for timing or whether those modifiers are "permanent" or in the model's profile.

So I bet you would try and Argue Thunderwolf Cavalry are Strength 9 as well wouldn't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:Yeah that is one of those that I defintiely disagree with as then it would mean it works differently than everything else in the game.

Oh noes, something works differently? Can't be having Variety in the game now can we!

Gwar! wrote:

solkan wrote:You "add +1 Strength ... to the profile" and then you double the strength for the thunderhammer. At that point you have the exact example on page seven. Page seven has no concern for timing or whether those modifiers are "permanent" or in the model's profile.

So I bet you would try and Argue Thunderwolf Cavalry are Strength 9 as well wouldn't you?

Do Thunderwolf Calvary have a wargear item called 'Thunderwolf Mount'? No, they don't. So they are IRRELEVANT. In the same manner Canis Wolfborne does not have the Thunderwolf Mount wargear item, but instead has 'Fangir'.

Did you have a relevant question?

solkan wrote:You "add +1 Strength ... to the profile" and then you double the strength for the thunderhammer. At that point you have the exact example on page seven. Page seven has no concern for timing or whether those modifiers are "permanent" or in the model's profile.

I would have to agree with this.

Thunderwolf Cav and Canis both simply have S5 in their profile. So anything that doubles their Strength would result in Strength 10.

Anyone else taking a Thunderwolf Mount is receiving a +1 modifier to their Strength. Page 7 of the rulebook tells us exactly how to figure out modifers, and nothing in the Thunderwolf entry suggests that it over-rides the rulebook modifier process.

It is not a modifier. It is an alteration to the base characteristic. Similar, but not identical.

Gwar! wrote:It is not a modifier. It is an alteration to the base characteristic. Similar, but not identical.

It looks like a modifier to a characteristic and there are rules for how modifiers to characteristics work according to the rules. You claim that it is instead an "alteration to a base characteristic" and therefore not subject to the rules for modifiers. Where do the rules describe or even mention your "alteration to a base characteristic" which is somehow not a 'modifier' and not subject to those rules?

Gwar! wrote:It is not a modifier. It is an alteration to the base characteristic. Similar, but not identical.

Can you find anything in the rules that actually makes that distinction?

'Alter' and 'Modify' mean the same thing. Anything that alters a characteristic is a modifier.

I think the difference is its added directly to the profile and this is not the case with modifiers. A model on a thunder mount will have a profile of Cavalry S5 T5

An Iron Priest has Strength 4. Anything that makes it not so is obviously a modifier.

Not quite true. The Daemon codex, for example, has chariots and mounts that increase the base statline.

Of course, it then goes on to post the new modified stat line in its own section so there's no ambiguity at all.

sourclams wrote:Not quite true. The Daemon codex, for example, has chariots and mounts that increase the base statline.

Of course, it then goes on to post the new modified stat line in its own section so there's no ambiguity at all.

agreed this would have been nice to see. What would it take to add what 3 more statline (Lord, guard, priest) ...

In the Chaos Daemons codex each of the new profiles is identified as a "modified profile", or in other words a profile to which modifiers have been added. The wargear is even helpful enough to identify what the appropriate modifiers were which resulted in the modified profile.

It remains the case that the changes conferred by the Thunderwolf Mount are referred to as modifiers and as such are subject to the rules for modifiers on page seven.

If a herald of Khorne could get a power fist equivalent, a fist swinging herald of Khorne on a chariot would roll to wound using S9 because in 40k for attributes 4+1*2=9.

solkan wrote:If a herald of Khorne could get a power fist equivalent, a fist swinging herald of Khorne on a chariot would roll to wound using S9 because in 40k for attributes 4+1*2=9.

I see it as a difference between a addition of a characteristic or a change of a characteristic. So that would be 4 > 5 or 4 > 4(5). The Chaos daemons codex does clearly give you a stat profile with a set str5 (when on a mount). This is then doubled by a power-fist-equivalent weapon (or would be, if there were one). There may be some confusion prior to that unit entry but it is very clear there and then & codex trumps rulebook as far as unit entries are concerned.

So with the Characters mounted on TW mounts, information relating (similar models/stats) does suggest that it should be a straight stat increase (so 4 > 5, not like a bikers toughness boost) but the information is missing which then leads you to fall back to the information provided by the BGB.

So you should follow the BGB, not because it is the definitive rules but it is the best rule under the circumstances of missing information (something pretty abundant in the SW codex ).

Thankfully, I plan to change the lords weapon to a frost blade, TWC fast-attack models are pretty straight forward and I am not too fussed about the +/- 1str of the Iron priests.. I was more concerned about that raw number of attacks they get to make.

Many thanks, pretty interesting thread. Hope it doesn't spiral too much (I.e don't make the same point twice?)

Gwar! wrote:It is not a modifier. It is an alteration to the base characteristic. Similar, but not identical.

not according to strict raw. while i agree that it SHOULD be a base profile change as is the case in TWC and canis (and that this was their intention), GW's poor choice of wording means its a modifier. you would think that if they're coming out with a competely new unit that they might have a second person double check the wording but times are apparently tough at GW and they can't afford the free lunch they'd have to give to a fanboi to look over the stuff.

It's still open to debate. Hopefully GW will address this when they release an FAQ for SW.

G