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Ok, someone has to tell me how much a Zoanthrope costs and how much these spore pods cost. That anti armor combo is the best in the game, its funny that the bugs went from the worst AT capability to the best in the game hands down. I mean comon, STR 10, AP1, Lance, get the F#$% out of here it better be pretty expensive. I know its 18" range which would be fine but the spore pods solves that problem to easy. If its pricey I can understand it but it better be much more expensive than they use to be.

A. Telling you the cost of anything is against forum rules.
B. You are talking about a codex that is not out or the PDF that is not supposed to exist.

The stats look nice yes, but:
1. Cover saves make it cry.
2. 'Short' ranged, so will most likely be small armed to death or locked in combat, so a one trick pony.
3. In a pod (depends on how many you have) but 'must' come in can suckage when there are no tanks worth popping for them.
4. Requires a psychic test, there are things to nullify it.
5. Meh against mass transports...best restults against AV14...and depends on meta, with this new melta age AV 14 has been hit or miss on a consistant bases.

All that said, Zoens are desirable...but I don't think it's good enough for some one to be breaking forum rules

EDIT: Please remove me.

Given their potential cost and vulnerability to counter attack I don't know that they'll be any more dangerous than, say, a squad of meltagun stormtroopers, or sternguard, or something along those lines.

The fact that it is a pyschic shooting attack makes it a bit vulnerable. I run a librarian as a counter mechanism for lash and eldar, and this is just solidifying Nids amoung the reasons why I always bring my libby.

Zoanthropes are strong, but they are vulnerable in certain respects.

Well, a Zoanthrope in a capsule is a one-trick pony.
I guess its a shooty power so that the psychic test is to be made in the shooting phase.
If it must be made prior to movement, then I see a problem, since the damned thing is in a capsule and not yet on the battle field.

I have the same problem with my mech Eldar if it comes from reserve. Fortune cannot be casted, but I guess you know...

S10 Lance is actually inferior to the Medusa's bastion breacher shells. Zoanthrope needs to roll 3+ on 1d6 to penetrate AV12-14, a 2/3 chance. Medusa needs to roll 5+ on 2d6 to penetrate AV14, a 5/6 chance. On any AV other than 14 the Medusa's chances get better, and it can shoot from more than twice the distance of the Zoanthrope. Both are Ap1.

If your AV is 12 or less in the first place, Lance isn't a particularly useful rule. Honestly, my Rhinos are probably more worried about mobile multi-meltas than one of these, especially since I believe the Zoanthrope's attack counts as a psychic power, so is somewhat unreliable. It's a harsh blow to Land Raider spammers, but Land Raider spam isn't exactly an advanced or powerful technique in the first place once you start playing good opponents.

Raxmei wrote:S10 Lance is actually inferior to the Medusa's bastion breacher shells. Zoanthrope needs to roll 3+ on 1d6 to penetrate AV12-14, a 2/3 chance. Medusa needs to roll 5+ on 2d6 to penetrate AV14, a 5/6 chance. On any AV other than 14 the Medusa's chances get better, and it can shoot from more than twice the distance of the Zoanthrope. Both are Ap1.

Not to mention that Breacher shells can actually pen AV14 even if they scatter and don't get a direct hit. S5+2d6 still has a shot. And they can't be nullified by a Psychic Hood or what have you. I think the Guard still can claim the best tank-killer in the game.

Vale,

JohnS

I am excited about the S10 lance. It's an option that Nidz have needed since 5th edition was released.

G

I don't see it being much different then Melta Vets or Termicide. Helps to insure that the target dies but will probably die in return.

I would be interested to see the math-hammer on it but my gut instinct is that 3x BS4 Melta shots > 1x BS4 S10 AP1 lance shot.

minigun762 wrote:I don't see it being much different then Melta Vets or Termicide. Helps to insure that the target dies but will probably die in return.

I would be interested to see the math-hammer on it but my gut instinct is that 3x BS4 Melta shots > 1x BS4 S10 AP1 lance shot.

Against Av14 meltas need 7+ on 2d6 to penetrate (21/36) with a 1/2 chance to kill plus a 5/36 chance to glance with a 1/6 chance to kill (31% chance to kill per hit). At BS4 each individual shot has a 21% chance of scoring a kill on Av14. Bit better than an even chance of scoring at least one kill shot when you fire all three.

vs 2/3 to penetrate, 1/2 to kill, and 1/6 to glance and 1/6 to kill (36% chance to kill per hit). At BS4 each individual shot has a 24% of scoring a kill.

vs AV13 the meltas penetrate on on 6+ (26/36 chance) and glance on a 5, resulting in a 38% chance of killing per hit.
Basically if you can shoot more than one melta or the target has anything less than AV14 the meltas win. This is assuming you're in melta range, of course.

Zoanthropes are just barely more expensive than a chimera each. Spore pods are as much as one vanilla terminator.

(suitably cryptic?)

minigun762 wrote:

I would be interested to see the math-hammer on it but my gut instinct is that 3x BS4 Melta shots > 1x BS4 S10 AP1 lance shot.

It is. People see "s10 ap 1 18" lance!!11!11!" and their heads explode. Really, guys - it's not that big a deal. If the weapon were similar to what other armies have, without the support that they have (transports, most importantly) then what good would they be? They'd ONLY be useful in a pod, and would REQUIRE good scatter or lots of targets. 18" is more than fair.

Zoanthropes are not overpowered because:

Psychic test

Similar range to ANYONE who can use a meltagun and a transport

Highly vulnerable to CC

The only way to guarantee a kill is to send them in with a spore pod. I think my lists will likely have 4 zoanthropes, 2 units of 2 with pods.

Once they get their one round of shooting, you have 1-3 dudes with T4, 2 wounds and a 3+ invuln (5+ armor, lol). You really think that's hard to put down in one shooting phase? Any army who can't wipe them off the board with shooting will have the power to assault them, and hey, they've got to be right in your face to do damage!

Make no mistake, they're pretty damn sweet. They're also not the end of the world. I think most players will be more frustrated with the T6 6 wound MCs with FNP who can poop out 3d6 termagants a turn, and are troops.

YES, tanks will die. If you only have one or two, they will die first EVERY GAME. That's why you bring more! If the idea of losing 2 tanks in one shooting phase is giving your conniption fits then it's time to abandon your crappy foot lists and inject some 5th edition into your armies.

Fire dragons still trump this except vs a monolith.

Ignoring the psychic test 67% to hit, 67% chance to pen and 50% chance to explode. So roughly 22% chance overall, double this for 44% chance. These are without cover and versus AV12+. This is way better than what they've got now. I am also planning to to take 2x2 in spores.

G

after you use psychic test do you have use your BS to hit with this attack?

Pass a psychic test

Roll to hit

Roll to penetrate

(potential cover save goes here!!!)

Roll to damage

Make no mistake, they're pretty damn sweet. They're also not the end of the world. I think most players will be more frustrated with the T6 6 wound MCs with FNP who can poop out 3d6 termagants a turn, and are troops.

Tervigons.

A mech Eldar army will not be too impressed by the Zoantrophes.

Pass psychic test with 3d6.
Roll to hit
Roll to penetrate, Serpents have energy fields which make the weapon S8.
Roll to damage

Eldar have more to worry about from the Hive Guard. 24", Str 8, Assault 2 shots that ignore LOS at a mere 50 pts a guy, three to a Brood.

Aduro wrote:Eldar have more to worry about from the Hive Guard. 24", Str 8, Assault 2 shots that ignore LOS at a mere 50 pts a guy, three to a Brood.

Indeed, Hive Guard is scarier.
These critters need to be eliminated quickly or the Eldar army needs to be redeployed so that its out of range.

while it is a definitely needed boost to the antitank shooting for nids, zoans are definitely not the best tank buster in the game overall...decent if they get into range, but there are a ton of better tank busting weapons out there with better range and penetrating power..(ie demolisher cannon, manticore storm eagle rockets, medusa bastion breacher rounds, fire dragon exarch with a firepike and the tank hunter skill, tau railgun (longer range and twin linked on suits), etc etc etc.....

Or Im still going to say broadsides. 3 broadsides with twin linked railguns? Yea they can bust up a tank pretty damn good Maybe not better, maybe not worse.

But the nids did get a pretty nice way to smoke a tank. I wish the Orks had that. Im sorry but against LR spam, Orks just struggle, we cant ignore all of them dammit!

wuestenfux wrote:

Make no mistake, they're pretty damn sweet. They're also not the end of the world. I think most players will be more frustrated with the T6 6 wound MCs with FNP who can poop out 3d6 termagants a turn, and are troops.

Tervigons.

A mech Eldar army will not be too impressed by the Zoantrophes.

Pass psychic test with 3d6.
Roll to hit
Roll to penetrate, Serpents have energy fields which make the weapon S8.
Roll to damage

I was always under the impression that Shadow in the Warp did not affect the wielder. IE, the Zoans wouldn't be affected by it. The current entry in the Tyranid codex states "All psychic tests made by the enemy during the game are made on 3d6, discounting the lowest roll. Any perils of the warp results are nulified, and the power will pass or fail as normal." So they would be passing psychic test on the normal 2d6 unless something changed in the new codex (or Serpents have some ability I'm missing).

Farseers eventually have runes of warding which forces the enemy to roll 3d6 for psychic tests.

wuestenfux wrote:Farseers eventually have runes of warding which forces the enemy to roll 3d6 for psychic tests.

Okeydoke, then ignore that last comment .

KingCracker wrote:Or Im still going to say broadsides. 3 broadsides with twin linked railguns? Yea they can bust up a tank pretty damn good Maybe not better, maybe not worse.

But the nids did get a pretty nice way to smoke a tank. I wish the Orks had that. Im sorry but against LR spam, Orks just struggle, we cant ignore all of them dammit!

Tankhammers, Warboss with power klaw, unit of Nobz or Meganobz with Power Klaws, Killa Kans, Deff Dreads, A Weirdboy's Zzap! psychic power... Did I miss anything? All S9 or 10, all multiple attacks, all (except for the Weirdboy) fairly reliable, and cheap, too! WAAAGH!

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Or Im still going to say broadsides. 3 broadsides with twin linked railguns? Yea they can bust up a tank pretty damn good Maybe not better, maybe not worse.

But the nids did get a pretty nice way to smoke a tank. I wish the Orks had that. Im sorry but against LR spam, Orks just struggle, we cant ignore all of them dammit!

Tankhammers, Warboss with power klaw, unit of Nobz or Meganobz with Power Klaws, Killa Kans, Deff Dreads, A Weirdboy's Zzap! psychic power... Did I miss anything? All S9 or 10, all multiple attacks, all (except for the Weirdboy) fairly reliable, and cheap, too! WAAAGH!

Well in theory and on paper, yes those work nicely. Except for any half assed tank player, will move the vehicle enough to make us Orks roll a 6 for hits. So seeing as the highlighted needs 6s to hit the tank, normally those wont due at all. Im an Ork player, and trust me it almost NEVER works. Obviously, your rolling a 6

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Or Im still going to say broadsides. 3 broadsides with twin linked railguns? Yea they can bust up a tank pretty damn good Maybe not better, maybe not worse.

But the nids did get a pretty nice way to smoke a tank. I wish the Orks had that. Im sorry but against LR spam, Orks just struggle, we cant ignore all of them dammit!

Tankhammers, Warboss with power klaw, unit of Nobz or Meganobz with Power Klaws, Killa Kans, Deff Dreads, A Weirdboy's Zzap! psychic power... Did I miss anything? All S9 or 10, all multiple attacks, all (except for the Weirdboy) fairly reliable, and cheap, too! WAAAGH!

Bolters, Lascannons, Blast Weapons, and not having your vehicles sit there motionless (as KingCracker said) all kill those footslogging Orks, which puts quite the damper on your WAAAGH!. Overall, Orks have alot of options for meleeing vehicles to death, but good luck footslogging after the vehicles (with the enemy shooting you) and then hitting on 6's .

wuestenfux wrote:Farseers eventually have runes of warding which forces the enemy to roll 3d6 for psychic tests.

And if you guys don't already have this kind of thing in your army, you probably should start running psychic defense. Any imperial army should have a rune priest, librarian, or inquisitor lord with a hood running around.

If you feel like being a real jerkface you could run the lord for all of those armies, since the hood has unlimited range.

Sorry xenos armies, you guys get to bend over for it. :(

That is a gross oversimplification and generalization that all armies "should" have a psychic hood. Yes it is a strong piece of wargear that I use regularly, but I do not think it would be accurate to say they should be in "any" imperial army.