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The codex it states that I can place a large blast over a model that I have passed during the movement phase.

I assume that I drop the bomb in the head of the poor sucker and roll 1D6 for scatter.

My question is:
Shall I assume if the bomd is dropped down and follow barrage rules and only grant cover if the models are i terrian or shall I follow normal shooting rules that grants other possible cover save. If normal shooting rules apply, shall I treat cover saves from my movement path as shooting direction?
If I treat it as barrage, is bigbomm pinning?

Maybe I am a complete dumpass, but the codex is a bit open on this point (in my head at least)

It would say if it ignored cover saves or if it acted as a barrage weapon. I think it's just a large blast if I remember right so they would get a cover save anyway, as long as their in cover of course.

Yes, it doesnt say that the bigbomm is a barrage weapon, its just a large blast weapon. So it would follow the same rules as any other blast template

Actually, it's technically not even a Blast weapon, it just uses the blast marker to determine who is hit (which is NOT the same thing).

But wouldnt using a blast template, make it a blast weapon? Forgive me for asking the obvious
As far as weapons go of course

KingCracker wrote:But wouldnt using a blast template, make it a blast weapon? Forgive me for asking the obvious
As far as weapons go of course

No. It has to have the Weapon Type "Blast", which is what causes it to use the blast marker. Using a blast marker does not necessarily mean it has the blast weapon type.

Also, there is no such thing as a "Blast Template" and hasn't been since at least 3rd edition

It's not even a shooting weapon since it makes a "special attack" and is used and resolved in the movement phase.

Since it's a special case not covered by the shooting rules I'd say that it should be treated like a barrage weapon (cover from center of blast, top (side) armour used if the center of the blast is on the vehicle. However, it certainly is not pinning.

Gwar! wrote:

KingCracker wrote:But wouldnt using a blast template, make it a blast weapon? Forgive me for asking the obvious
As far as weapons go of course

No. It has to have the Weapon Type "Blast", which is what causes it to use the blast marker. Using a blast marker does not necessarily mean it has the blast weapon type.

Also, there is no such thing as a "Blast Template" and hasn't been since at least 3rd edition

Well that makes sense, I started in 3rd lol but uh.... fresh from the GW site ,called templates.......... did they drop the "blast" part then?



Anywho your right it is a special attack. I just figured since it uses the large blast, then it followed blast rules. Its hard to write without using the word "blast template" Thanks GWAR, these are my hands, and now they are tied

Since you drop it after the movement, the cover is checked from your final position right?
You can use it to ignore a lot of simple cover elements like low walls by dropping it on the backside, if so.

It is not a barrage weapon though, and all normal cover rules apply.

WAIT A SECOND! It says blast template in the blasted codex! How is it those dont exists then?


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Gorkamorka wrote:Since you drop it after the movement, the cover is checked from your final position right?
You can use it to ignore a lot of simple cover elements like low walls by dropping it on the backside, if so.

It is not a barrage weapon though.

Final position maybe, but youd think you would use the position from where you started, as it is a fly over. But thats real world mechanics, and this is 40k lol

KingCracker wrote:WAIT A SECOND! It says blast template in the blasted codex! How is it those dont exists then?

"Place the large blast template..."
Good god, I'm not insane!
I didn't just make that wording up when I started out... I've been trying to kick the habit of saying it ever since.

edit:
It even calls them templates elsewhere, like in the SAG description. GW for the win.

Well, the rules call them Blast Markers.

Thus, by the RaW, Nothing that asks for a Blast Template works

AHHAAAA but it also says that the codex trumps the rulebook. THEY ARE BLAST TEMPLATES! +1 for this guy Dont worry folks Im here all week.....

KingCracker wrote:AHHAAAA but it also says that the codex trumps the rulebook. THEY ARE BLAST TEMPLATES! +1 for this guy Dont worry folks Im here all week.....

Codex trumps rulebook eh?

Ok, the codex asks you to place a Blast Template. I have zero problem with that, that is what the rules say after all.

Where are the rules for what a Blast Template is, good sir?

Hey your the rules master, you figure it out. Let me enjoy this for more then 15 seconds

I'd say follow the rules for ordanace, after all if a chopper drops a bomm on you, standing behind a wall won't to anything.

Eldar Own wrote:I'd say follow the rules for ordanace, after all if a chopper drops a bomm on you, standing behind a wall won't to anything.

The rules for Ordnance have nothing to do with cover saves.

Are you thinking of Barrage? If so, the Bigbomm is not stated to be Barrage, so it isn't. Period.

Gwar! wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:I'd say follow the rules for ordanace, after all if a chopper drops a bomm on you, standing behind a wall won't to anything.

The rules for Ordnance have nothing to do with cover saves.

Are you thinking of Barrage? If so, the Bigbomm is not stated to be Barrage, so it isn't. Period.

Well, it's not a Blast Template either. . . but we still place the marker.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Eldar Own wrote:I'd say follow the rules for ordanace, after all if a chopper drops a bomm on you, standing behind a wall won't to anything.

The rules for Ordnance have nothing to do with cover saves.

Are you thinking of Barrage? If so, the Bigbomm is not stated to be Barrage, so it isn't. Period.

Well, it's not a Blast Template either. . . but we still place the marker.

Yes, you place a "blast template" (whatever that is ) because the rules tell you to. It doesn't mean it is a Barrage or a Blast attack, as it would have to specifically state it is for it to be. It doesn't, so it isn't.

Surely then, by a strict RAW stance, there are no cover saves against it since cover saves are used against shooting attacks?

Scott-S6 wrote:Surely then, by a strict RAW stance, there are no cover saves against it since cover saves are used against shooting attacks?

Can you find me a page/quote for that? It was brought up in another thread, and I don't remember seeing it on ~p20 where cover saves are described.
I know the CC rules say you don't get to use cover saves, but I don't recall cover only working against shooting specifically.

Gorkamorka wrote:Can you find me a page/quote for that?

There is no rule that specifically says 'Cover save only work against shooting attacks'... but various parts of the cover save rules make it pretty clear, as it refers to cover being something that shields you from enemy shots, or models being considered in cover when the LOS from the firer is obscured.

insaniak wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:Can you find me a page/quote for that?

There is no rule that specifically says 'Cover save only work against shooting attacks'... but various parts of the cover save rules make it pretty clear, as it refers to cover being something that shields you from enemy shots, or models being considered in cover when the LOS from the firer is obscured.

That's sort of my point. Without an actual declaration that they only work against strictly typed shooting attacks a cover save is a save like any other: If gained, it can be used unless it is denied somehow. The rules on p21 that describe cover saves and taking them seem to support that assertion, by my reading.

I'm a little unsure if you would gain a save to take here (at a glance I think you would), but that'd require a bunch of strict RAW reading I don't want to do tonight.
However, I'm fairly certain that if you had a cover save (from a kff, for example) you could take it.

I think the easiest solution is to follow the barrage rules where you determine cover from the center of the blast marker (or template, or whatever it's called). It's definately not RAW, but I think it's a good middle ground. I guess this is one of those "discuss it with your opponent" type quandries.

In theory coversaves work against all wounds excluding close combat (since it is mention as having no direct effect there)

Here's what I do when this situation comes up.

Cover saves apply only by a special rule( i.e. KFF) or in area terrain.

Other than that , no cover saves allowed.

That's just what I do, and is by no means official.

BTW, blast templates? Really? It amazes me that GW has the collective intelligence of a grot. MAKE IT CLEAR WHAT FETHING BLAST TEMPLATES ARE!!!!!111!!!!1!1!one

It is essentially the same thing as a Swooping Hawk Grenade pack. There is no specific way that it is play as it is considered a special attack. The rules for shooting a blast call for you to judge what is giving cover from the direction of the firing model, but since this attack is coming from straight down we always play it as barrage.

RAW there is no real answer without an FAQ, make a poll and go from there.

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:BTW, blast templates? Really? It amazes me that GW has the collective intelligence of a grot. MAKE IT CLEAR WHAT FETHING BLAST TEMPLATES ARE!!!!!111!!!!1!1!one

Ultimately, it's only a big deal in RAW discussions. People have been referring to the Blast Markers as templates for 15 years now, despite the core rules not generally doing so. 'Template' has, in the core rules, referred to the teardrop template since 3rd edition, but GW have periodically referred to 'blast templates' in codexes or gaming articles.

So, whilst in RAW terminology there is no defined thing that is a 'blast template', in practice we know what they mean.


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BlueDagger wrote:It is essentially the same thing as a Swooping Hawk Grenade pack. There is no specific way that it is play as it is considered a special attack. The rules for shooting a blast call for you to judge what is giving cover from the direction of the firing model, but since this attack is coming from straight down we always play it as barrage.

Actually, I don't think the BigBomm counts as coming from above, as it's written.

The Koptaz declare a BigBomm attack against an enemy that the unit "...has moved over during its Movement phase..."

Note the past tense. The bomb isn't resolved as the Koptaz move over the unit. It's resolved against a unit that the Koptaz did move over, after they have finished their movement.

So if you count it as a ranged attack (which it certainly appears to be, with the proviso that it doesn't need LOS or range, since it's allowed to target any unit moved over) it would seem to be resolved from wherever the Koptaz finish their movement. Which would allow for cover if applicable.