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Here's what I suggest.

Rapid Fire weapons should be modified slightly, so that a model can fire once rather than twice in rapid fire range (12" IIRC) and then assault.

What do ya all think? Is it way too far out there?

Well, then it wouldn't be called rapid fire would it! And you can assault after shooting can't you?

aromasin wrote:Well, then it wouldn't be called rapid fire would it! And you can assault after shooting can't you?

Yep.

EDIT:
scratch that. Apparently they cant XD. Thats stupid, I thought they could

aromasin wrote:Well, then it wouldn't be called rapid fire would it! And you can assault after shooting can't you?

I guess... But no, you can't assault after shooting with a rapid fire weapon. Perhaps instead of modifying the weapon, simply create an assault 1 or pistol alternative (i.e. bolter and bolt pistol on Marines.)

Would it be too overpowered if Rapid Fire was allowed to assault after shooting but the models don't gain the +1 attack for charging or for having 2 ccw weapons (since they were firing)?

orchewer wrote:Would it be too overpowered if Rapid Fire was allowed to assault after shooting but the models don't gain the +1 attack for charging or for having 2 ccw weapons (since they were firing)?

Brilliant! You, sir, are a genius!

Basically, I don't think it would be OP.

That's going back to the trial assault rules, you know, the rules that got scrapped for being "too balanced".

The problem is that most armies that are assault oriented in their fluff and design already either have assault weapons or pistols.

This rule would not significantly benefit Tau or Necrons, who would be better served taking both rapid fire shots for example. It seems like it would largely benefit only the IG, which is widely considered the strongest army to date in 5th ed.

As such, a system wide change to rapid fire is unwarranted, and it would be better suited to a codex specific rule, perhaps in the form of an Order, something like 'Fix Bayonets', which would allow IG to fire one shot from their lasgun before assault.

I agree with the theme of this thread. SM don;t have to worry about it as much as some armies, but I'd really like to take Lightning Claws and Hellfire Rounds for my Space Marine captain. But SM captains can only have the bolt pistol or the boltgun. Its either take the Boltgun/Hellfie Rounds and have issues assaulting, or some other combo which will let me, but isn't what I want to do.

war gear selection is about choices. I'd like to be able to give my orks shootas and still get as many attacks as if they had sluggas, but part of building your army is making those choices between being better in one area or the other.

Although really, I don't think 13 pistol shots versus 12 pistol shots before assaulting is a major issue.

Kroot Loops wrote:war gear selection is about choices. I'd like to be able to give my orks shootas and still get as many attacks as if they had sluggas, but part of building your army is making those choices between being better in one area or the other.

Although really, I don't think 13 pistol shots versus 12 pistol shots before assaulting is a major issue.

Yes... but the issue is different. First, Shootas are Assault 2, so no problem.

Secondly, what about armies like Tau or Necrons? They don't have pistol equivalents of RF weapons, what do they do? Remember, 1 shot and 2 CC attacks can beat 2 shots in a case of charge or be charged.

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:war gear selection is about choices. I'd like to be able to give my orks shootas and still get as many attacks as if they had sluggas, but part of building your army is making those choices between being better in one area or the other.

Although really, I don't think 13 pistol shots versus 12 pistol shots before assaulting is a major issue.

Yes... but the issue is different. First, Shootas are Assault 2, so no problem.

Secondly, what about armies like Tau or Necrons? They don't have pistol equivalents of RF weapons, what do they do? Remember, 1 shot and 2 CC attacks can beat 2 shots in a case of charge or be charged.

No. There is no time when it would be better from an offensive point to shoot once and charge with WS 2 S 3 T 3 I 2 A 1 LD 7 troops with a max size of 12 that have neither grenades nor rending nor power weapons, than to take two BS 3 Str 5 shots. The only time you could even justify assaulting is into an equally sucky CC Unit to tie them up, IE Pink Horrors. Although it should be noted that the herald in the horrors can take a power weapon, and if it has done so, you're toast.

Example:

12 fire warriors rapid fire on a marine squad, 2.6 dead

12 fire warriors shoot at marines, 1.3 dead. They then assault three surviving TAC marines, we'll assume the power fist sergeant is dead: marines go first, 3 attacks: .65 dead fire warriors. We'll assume they all survive; 12 FW attack 3 marines, 1.3 dead. In subsequent rounds the FW will only kill .65 as compared to the two marines .43

That was with everything being extremely favorable to you. More than three alive or one of them have the powerfist and you've lost combat and will have a very large chance of losing the entire squad to sweeping advance.

And for many of these armies it wouldn't fit the fluff. Tau abhor close combat, they wouldn't be developing weapons to use for assault.

Rapid Fire weapons work the way they do to add diversity to both weapons and units. Changing them to work as assault 1 for the purposes of assaulting and that diversity starts to fade.

And the shoota/slugga thing is the same. You want an Assault 1 shot so that you can get 3 attacks in your turn. I want the shoota to grant an extra CC attack so that on the waaaagh! I get the same number of attacks as a slugga boy, but in subsequent turns I have the range and dakka of a shoota. It doesn't work that way though, and it shouldn't.

Now if GW does decide to add an assault 1 profile to rapid fire I won't lose any sleep over it. But I won't support it as a proposed rule.

Kroot Loops wrote:

Rapid Fire weapons work the way they do to add diversity to both weapons and units. Changing them to work as assault 1 for the purposes of assaulting and that diversity starts to fade.


Now if GW does decide to add an assault 1 profile to rapid fire I won't lose any sleep over it. But I won't support it as a proposed rule.

I completely agree with the former point, less so, but still agreeing with the latter.

Rapid Fire helps develop different tactics and uses than being able to assault. Imagine the complaints if Space Marines could fire and then assault. Rapid Fire rules help create a clear difference between Rapid Fire and Assault Weapons. Eldar use assault weapons as it aids their manoeuvrability. Tau use Rapid Fire weapons because it aids there firepower.

I see there as being nothing majorly wrong with the current base of rules for weapons...

Basically, Hell No! Would I like rapid fire to be able to assault.

Hey isn't there one pistol in the Tau codex, on the sniper drone team?

Space Marines can fire and assault..... they have bolt pistols.... and who cares if people complain? Games Workshop sure as heck doesn't, and if you ask any player they will complain about something that another player will find perfectly fine and other players will completely agree with.

Kroot Loops wrote:

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:

Kroot Loops wrote:war gear selection is about choices. I'd like to be able to give my orks shootas and still get as many attacks as if they had sluggas, but part of building your army is making those choices between being better in one area or the other.

Although really, I don't think 13 pistol shots versus 12 pistol shots before assaulting is a major issue.

Yes... but the issue is different. First, Shootas are Assault 2, so no problem.

Secondly, what about armies like Tau or Necrons? They don't have pistol equivalents of RF weapons, what do they do? Remember, 1 shot and 2 CC attacks can beat 2 shots in a case of charge or be charged.

No. There is no time when it would be better from an offensive point to shoot once and charge with WS 2 S 3 T 3 I 2 A 1 LD 7 troops with a max size of 12 that have neither grenades nor rending nor power weapons, than to take two BS 3 Str 5 shots. The only time you could even justify assaulting is into an equally sucky CC Unit to tie them up, IE Pink Horrors. Although it should be noted that the herald in the horrors can take a power weapon, and if it has done so, you're toast.

Example:

12 fire warriors rapid fire on a marine squad, 2.6 dead

12 fire warriors shoot at marines, 1.3 dead. They then assault three surviving TAC marines, we'll assume the power fist sergeant is dead: marines go first, 3 attacks: .65 dead fire warriors. We'll assume they all survive; 12 FW attack 3 marines, 1.3 dead. In subsequent rounds the FW will only kill .65 as compared to the two marines .43

That was with everything being extremely favorable to you. More than three alive or one of them have the powerfist and you've lost combat and will have a very large chance of losing the entire squad to sweeping advance.

And for many of these armies it wouldn't fit the fluff. Tau abhor close combat, they wouldn't be developing weapons to use for assault.

Rapid Fire weapons work the way they do to add diversity to both weapons and units. Changing them to work as assault 1 for the purposes of assaulting and that diversity starts to fade.

And the shoota/slugga thing is the same. You want an Assault 1 shot so that you can get 3 attacks in your turn. I want the shoota to grant an extra CC attack so that on the waaaagh! I get the same number of attacks as a slugga boy, but in subsequent turns I have the range and dakka of a shoota. It doesn't work that way though, and it shouldn't.

Now if GW does decide to add an assault 1 profile to rapid fire I won't lose any sleep over it. But I won't support it as a proposed rule.

OK, let's assume the PF sgt. isn't dead and the Space Marines decide to shoot with Bolt Pistols prior to assaulting. Sorry, but your math is a bit off in that case.

The math was done as the fire warriors assaulting the space marines, who wouldn't have been able to fire their bolt pistols in that case. So where is the math off.

If you're positing what happens if the fire warriors rapid fire and then take the assault in the same situation?

12 fire warriors take 24 shots and kill 2.6 marines. Working on the previous assumption that 1.3 kills leaves 3 marines alive, that would leave 1 or 2 marines alive. we'll assume two to favor you more.

Again, assuming the marines pass their break test:

two marines shoot their bolt pistols, .43 dead Tau. They assault, gain no benefits due to photon grenades, 2 attacks, .43 dead tau. We'll even assume that two fire warriors have been killed at this point. 10 fire warriors attack back, .54 dead marines

Think about it like this, you can have 24 shots that hit 50% and wound 66%, or 12 shots that hit 50% and wound 66%, followed by up to 24 attacks that hit 50% and wound 33%.

if you play as SM, it's okay.

they have bolt pistols.

Captain Solon wrote:if you play as SM, it's okay.

they have bolt pistols.

Indeed, you can fire a single Bolt pistol and are still allowed to assualt. You will only get the +1 attack bonus if you have swapped the boltgun for a close combat weapon, the act of which negates the whole point of the rapid fire discussion, just throwing that point in there for clarification.

I think Rapid fire currently works well the way it is, and if we start mucking around with how rapid fire should work then it wouldn't be long until Heavy weapon modifications get suggested to allow models assault after firing them *shivers*

There should be an oppurtunity cost for Rapid Firing.
Disallowed assault works perfectly.

It has worked well since several editions ago...

If you want move, shoot, and charge weapons, then go for armies that have assault weapons for troops, (ie: Eldar Dire Avengers, Chaos Noise Marines, etc.)

HellsGuardian316 wrote:

Captain Solon wrote:if you play as SM, it's okay.

they have bolt pistols.

Indeed, you can fire a single Bolt pistol and are still allowed to assualt. You will only get the +1 attack bonus if you have swapped the boltgun for a close combat weapon, the act of which negates the whole point of the rapid fire discussion, just throwing that point in there for clarification.

I think Rapid fire currently works well the way it is, and if we start mucking around with how rapid fire should work then it wouldn't be long until Heavy weapon modifications get suggested to allow models assault after firing them *shivers*

Since when can Tactical Squads take CCWs? Sergeants can, and so can scouts.

And I'm not thinking about heavy weapons, but hey! Dat's a good idea ya gretchin luvva!

You know those Space Marine trait system...oh wait...nvm...they don't exist anymore...

Sanctjud wrote:You know those Space Marine trait system...oh wait...nvm...they don't exist anymore...

So I'm not crazy... For that anyway...