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So, I have been playing 40k now for about 8 months. Recently, I decided to break away form the one game per month I play with my bro and I went to the FLGS in searchof opponents. On my second visit to the store I found a game with a Witch Hunter player. After two hours of witnessing this guy blatantly disregarding rules as he saw fit to better suit his army's current strategy, I was curious to research a lot of the things he did. My question concerns the Assassin ability "A Word in Your Ear."

Here is how it was used:
My opponent moved a unit of mine (out of my deployment zone which is illegal anyway) and used the ability to pull it out of cohesion. He claimed, "You can't fire with your heavy weapons now because you have to get back into cohesion." This is true - if that's the way the ability works. I read the rule in his codex, which clearly states that you can move a "unit" 6" not each model in the unit. I am wondeirng if he was abusing the power and taking advantage of a newer player or if this is the way it is really played. It seems to me that if the power was intended to be used to knock units out of cohesion, GW would have simply stated that.

Also, if you have the answer, can you point me in the right direction? My goal now is to shut that crap down so he doesn't do it to other new players. It's pretty lame when all you want to do is play this game and you go up against a guy who ignores area terrain with his rhinos, uses "fate points" whenever he is in trouble, and removes his wrecked vehicles from the table when they block HIS walkers and leaves them in place to block YOUR terminators. Pretty friggin obnoxious.

Thanks in advance

You can't break cohesion when moving. Even unconventional movement generated by the other player follows normal movement rules (lash, pavane, word in your ear). No moving off the table, into impassible terrain, out of cohesion, etc.

No, he has to keep the unit in Coherency.

Nothing says he can break Coherency, so he cannot.

I have seen many people advocating this "move out of coherency" tactic with A Word In Your Ear. Fortunately, it is illegal. As for "fate points," however, he may have been referring to Acts of Faith, which are a key part of the Witch Hunters army and definitely not illegal.

Thanks, guys. I figured he was using it wrong. Just doesn't make sense the way he did it.

Also - about the "Fate Points" - he explained them to me, but he was using them WHENEVER he saw fit. I am not sure exactly how they work (whether they are used in shooting phase or whatever), but based on the other things he did throughout the game, I wouldn't doubt if he tweeked them a bit. When I asked him how many he had, he claimed "6". Conveniently for him, this was right after he burned his fifth.

It's a shame too. Apparently this dude is the go-to-guy in the store when it comes to rules. So, he's teaching everyone how to play wrong and manipulating the rules set to his advantage.

Remember the faith points can be broken down into 2 categories:

Offensive: which need less that the squad size on 2d6

Defensive: which need more than the squad size on 2d6

another note about faith points. Players generally have allot of them. I'm not sure what size army you are playing with, but you can easily get 8 - 9 points at 1500 points at least 5 at 1000. An HQ 2 troops and either an elite or fast attack give you 5 points. Furthermore faith points can be refunded to the player if the unit that contributing them dies, its called martyrdom.

That being said allot of the faith point abuses comes because other opponent doesn't quite realize how they are used. I suggest you read the book before you play next time. Most of the powers I bet happen exactly when he says they do. The one glaring exception is the act of faith that gives his models an invulernable save. In this case it specifically states in the power that it must be used at the start of the phase NOT after wounds are calculated. The reason players overlook this is because the offensive powers do not have to be declared at the begining of the phase.

That being said allot of the faith point abuses comes because other opponent doesn't quite realize how they are used. I suggest you read the book before you play next time.

Read the book? Which one? His codex?! Perhaps I misunderstood because he didn't bother to explain at at the beginning of the game. I certainly don't expect him to teach me how to play his army, but something like fate points is worth mentioning.

Most of the powers I bet happen exactly when he says they do.

Maybe they do happen when he "says they do", but my point was that the guy was cheating across the board. He placed his objective on an illegal table quarter, drove rhinos through area terrain like it didn't exist, paid for a model that he didn't bother to field claiming that it "sucked" for his other units (his exact words), removed his wrecked vehicles when they inconvenienced him while leaving them in place to block my way. He ignored my cover save when he shot weapons over area terrain arguing with "true line of sight" - which is a completely different rule for a completely different situation. Maybe you're right and he was playing the fate points correctly. With all of the other "mishaps", though, that's hard to believe from my side of the table.

The one glaring exception is the act of faith that gives his models an invulernable save. In this case it specifically states in the power that it must be used at the start of the phase NOT after wounds are calculated. The reason players overlook this is because the offensive powers do not have to be declared at the begining of the phase.

Which "phase?" He was using it as the assault started, didn't tell me the required roll, and rolled so quickly I had no idea what the results were.

Now...you may be saying, "why didn't you call him out?" I did and I didn't. I gave him the benefit of the doubt as he is a "veteran" and I am a noob, but I see now that some people will do ANYTHING to win and I know the rules better than most because I actually "follow" them.

Also - if you are going to comment on my thread, please read what I have written about the situation and post an enlightening reply. I don't appreciate you approaching me as if I am ignorant to the knowledge kept by the all-powerful elites of 40k. Especially when my primary complaint was justified because my opponent cheated and especially because it's that "you don't know any better" attitude that enabled my opponent to rape the rules of the greatest game ever made and get a cheap win out of a friendly match.

FlightMek wrote:Read the book? Which one? His codex?!

Yes, that is generally how you know your opponent isn't Bullgaking you.

@Flightmek

I did read your post and I thought I provided you with a thoughtful response to one of your questions that was asked. The first one was already answered so I didn't think I needed to comment on it. If I offended you I apologize I didn't intend to. I am in no way an elite of 40k talking to a lesser being, but it is every player's responsibility to ensure that the rules are being followed in order to have a fair and fun game. Not everyone is a nice guy so yes you should read your opponents book or if not then ask him to explain each rule to you that you are having confusion with. Every player does it. This is especially true when you come up against older less played armies such as dark eldar and witch hunters which have rules that are very confusing and worded poorly. You also have to acknowledge that maybe you weren't entirely being cheated in every instance. It happens to all of us sometime.

@FlightMek - The guy sounds like a douche-bag - don't play him again. It's a shame, because Witch-Hunters are an army that isn't generally seen too often. It's a reasonable assumption that he was cheating with Faith points, bearing in mind the other stuff you mentioned. I draw attention to, and explain any special rules that I am using to my opponent as soon as they come up, and hand my codex over for perusal should my opponent require it.

That's just good blokesmanship.

it could of been worse

now if he was a GREY KNIGHTS player then he would of been a real douche bag

If you are ever unsure of something or dont think it sounds kosher from somebody's codex, nobody should have a problem showing you the rule.

If you were aware of him cheating during the game on the regular non WH points, why didnt you stop him? If you just learned he was cheating afterwards upon reviewing the rules, then disregard my question.

Yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to ask your opponent to show you the rule in his codex. Very few players carry every book for every army, a copy of the codex for the army you're playing and the main rulebook is what each player is expected to have.

If you feel like stepping up, study the main rulebook and the next time you play, don't hesitate to question anything that seems wonky. If this guy is breaking the rules to suit himself, showing him up a few times for being wrong will go a long ways towards curing him. You don't need to be mean about it, just firm, and he'll either straighten up or find another game/place to play. You'll be doing a favor to everyone else who plays at the shop and bring up the standard of rules knowledge. Everyone becomes a better player and enjoys their games more, and you will be better prepared for tournaments locally and away.

Here is how it was used:
My opponent moved a unit of mine (out of my deployment zone which is illegal anyway) and used the ability to pull it out of cohesion. He claimed, "You can't fire with your heavy weapons now because you have to get back into cohesion." This is true - if that's the way the ability works. I read the rule in his codex, which clearly states that you can move a "unit" 6" not each model in the unit. I am wondeirng if he was abusing the power and taking advantage of a newer player or if this is the way it is really played. It seems to me that if the power was intended to be used to knock units out of cohesion, GW would have simply stated that.

Saw this and first thing I thought was, "I've heard this before! But where?" Then I remembered. Over on Bell of Lost Souls. See: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/11/40k-tactics-callidus-assassin.html

Seems Mkerr has been advocating this little tactic.

Let's be fair.

When Mkerr brought it up he had this part bolded;

Rules Lay(I do not advocate (or play) using the following interpretation, but it's an interesting discussion point)

Interesting discussion point indeed.

Can someone post the exact rules of A Word in Your Ear so those of us who don't own the WH codex can examine it?

"A Word in Your Ear...The player with the Callidus Assassin can move one enemy unit up to 6" after both sides have deployed, but before the first turn starts. The unit's new position must be within the normal deployment zone, and the owning player may choose the facing of the unit after it has been moved." WH Codex pp. 31

If your opponent concedes you need to test for dangerous terrain due to this move, then it follows the normal movement rules for troops (and I do not see why it would not). Which means he cannot send half your unit 6" in one direction and the other half 6" the other direction since moving units need to stay in coherency.

As a Sisters of Battle player myself I find people who do not explain the 'Faith' system to be annoying, because it usually means they are abusing it. Next time you play a SoB army make sure they use a die or several dice depending to indicate how much Faith the army has left. Then deduct each time they attempt an act of faith (AoF) and add it in when a faithful character dies.

Also remember, standard SoB troops are only Faithful and capable of using AoF if they have a Veteran Superior or Cannonness joined up.

For area terrain and cover, if he had Blessed Ammunition (which he shouldn't because it is a lousy upgrade) he may have been able to ignore cover with some of his units.

Trick is to also include Telion. Spread them out, then shoot out the middle 2. Even more fun if you can get some into difficult terrain ... since it slows down all the unit.

dumplingman wrote:@Flightmek

I did read your post and I thought I provided you with a thoughtful response to one of your questions that was asked. The first one was already answered so I didn't think I needed to comment on it. If I offended you I apologize I didn't intend to. I am in no way an elite of 40k talking to a lesser being, but it is every player's responsibility to ensure that the rules are being followed in order to have a fair and fun game. Not everyone is a nice guy so yes you should read your opponents book or if not then ask him to explain each rule to you that you are having confusion with. Every player does it. This is especially true when you come up against older less played armies such as dark eldar and witch hunters which have rules that are very confusing and worded poorly. You also have to acknowledge that maybe you weren't entirely being cheated in every instance. It happens to all of us sometime.

This situation has infuriated me to no end, so I may have been quick to lash out. All apologies on my end too.

My wife actually purchased the Witch Hunter's codex last night because she's decided she may try to play 40k with me! If she did it would be cool, but in the mean-time I have been able to check a lot of the questions I had about what ,my opponent was doing. For those of you interested here they are:

1.) Faith Points - It seems he was using them at the right time from what I remember. However, there is no way for me to truly know how many fate points he had. We were playing a 1500pt game, so it is certainly possible he did have six. Normally I would give the benefit of the doubt, but...

2.) Pentinent Engine - I hadn't even brought this one up before because I had no idea, but the guy NEVER took +1 damage for being open-topped. I rolled plenty of 1's and 2's to which he replied, "I ignore 1's and 2's." Not when open-topped, dude! 2's damage!

3.) Divine Guidance - He used the Divine Guidance power to give his squads Rending. (For those of you who don't know - DG makes rolls of 6's count as AP1 when wounding during shooting.) Although AP1 against CSMs is certainly equivelant to Rending in many ways it's still not Rending. Just say what the thing actually does. There is nothing in the errata changing the wording on this either.

4.) Terrain - As I stated earlier in this thread, he abused area terrain claiming that "the part of the base behind the ruined walls was rough terrain." He did this with Rhinos neglecting to roll dangerous terrain as well as shooting at me with his exorcists.

5.) Callidus Assassin - Moving a unit out of coherency is not only against the rules, it's lame as hell. Why even interpret the rule that way? Just shows you what kind of player he was. For the guy who reffered to dangerous terrain - I would assume that it counts and I would have to roll. Afterall, the rule doesn't say to re-deploy the unit. It says to "move" it. I would have had no problem with that.

Bottom Line - For those of you questioning why I didn't stop him: I did sometimes and others I was either too disgusted with the flow of the game or ignorant to what he was doing until it was too late. Also, keep this in mind: I am new to the store. A lot of those guys are there every weekend and know eachother. Who am I to kick in the door and declare that they are cheating? Plus...I am a nice guy. Some of the rule breeches - although wrong - were silly at the time. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. However, a compilation of rules-raping (as I like to call it) surmounted to an awful experience.

For those of you who sympathize, I thank you. Makes me think that the jack-ass to bad-ass ratio in the community may be less than I thought.

For those of you guys out there who "win at all costs" - People play 40k because they LOVE it. Don't steal away their once-a-week pleasure by being a dick. Be competitive, play fair, and always have a good time.

Thanks!

P.S. - If you're not maiming burning and killing.....you're doing it wrong.

3) not sure why you didnt think you couldn't take invulnerable saves - AP1 or Rending makes no difference, you can still take your Inv saves.

No worries Flightmek I competely understand how you feel. This game can be quite infuriating at times. Good luck to your wife with sisters!

As a veteren gamer I can tell you from personal experience that you will run into people like this Everywhere.

I have played at game stores in Florida, Georgia, Washington, Oregon, Hawaii over the course of the past 13-14 years, and at every store there is at least one guy who plays like this. The best way to deal with them is to just not play against them, they will always be a pain in the ass to play against, and when you try to play a "decent" game against them (and correct the rules infractions) they will just get angry and resort to personal attacks to make YOU seem like the jerk to the other gamers.

Lately I have been playing nothing but tournaments, and its a sad fact that you will run into these players at tournaments as well, all you need to do is call him out on the first thing you see, and have the tournament organizer watch the match. Bit of a pain in the ass, but its the only way to not get shafted.

For those of you guys out there who "win at all costs" - People play 40k because they LOVE it. Don't steal away their once-a-week pleasure by being a dick. Be competitive, play fair, and always have a good time.

Also remember, if no plays against the WAAC players, then they cant have their once-a-week pleasure, and they will either shape up, quit, or play somewhere else.

P.S. - If you're not maiming burning and killing.....you're doing it wrong.

Orks do that on all sides


It sucks when things like that happen, and it ALWAYS seems to be on the new guy at a new group. I had a similar experience when I first got into 40k. I joined a local group and was CSM (before they got hoed) I played a "veteran" too, he was IG. He set up a basilisk behind a building with no line of sight, but instead of firing the basilisk indirect, you guessed it, he was directly firing at my units (and really was kicking some ass to boot) He set up the terrain on the table, and of couse HE got all the terrain and stuff to hide in, I got an empty table quarter to move across.
I was generally getting my ass kicked, until I got into CC with the guy. I ended up almost winning the game. But afterwards when telling some of the guys about the close victory, is when they looked stumped and told me about how the table SHOULD of been set up and how his basilisk couldnt of fired how he was firing. Ive since learned, you cant really give people the benefit of the doubt. If it sounds wonky or over powered, you call them on it. Though the rule might really be how they say it is, you wont know until you find out. Because not everyone has every codex in the game

nosferatu1001 wrote:3) not sure why you didnt think you couldn't take invulnerable saves - AP1 or Rending makes no difference, you can still take your Inv saves.

The rule reads: "Any roll to wound of 6 with a rending weapon automatically causes a wound, regardless of the target's toughness, and counts as AP2."

This has confused me in the past, but after reading your comment I understand it better. The intended function of rending is for the "6" to be explicitly used in regards to toughness, not to actually cause a wound. The six allows you to wound an enormously tough monster. The words "automatically" combined with "wound" caused me to misread it.

Thanks, Nosferatu! Sometimes being forced to reread a rule allows you to see it more clearly.

Note: I have edited my previous post that included this misread.

And one last thing.
It is not Fate Points. It is Faith points.

Steelmage99 wrote:And one last thing.
It is not Fate Points. It is Faith points.

Edited..thanks!

FlightMek wrote:
2.) Pentinent Engine - I hadn't even brought this one up before because I had no idea, but the guy NEVER took +1 damage for being open-topped. I rolled plenty of 1's and 2's to which he replied, "I ignore 1's and 2's." Not when open-topped, dude! 2's damage!

A roll of 1 -2 on a glancing hit still counts as shaken.
The main table in the BRB (in the vehicle damage section, not the one in the back) says 1 or less is shaken.

Thats not his point.

FlightMek forgot to add the +1 for the target being open-topped. Now he blames his opponent for his oversight.

I have played Penitent Engines before and they are a bit of an obscure unit in general. It is the Witch Hunter players responsibility to resolve damage appropriately against his own army. While FlightMek is also responsible to keep an eye out as well, it is really unfair to blame him for not knowing the details of a rarely fielded unit in an ancient (and fairly obscure) Codex.

In the same way I am sure his opponent was sure to mention that when he did yield a weapon destroyed result, Flight is not allowed to pick which weapon the engine loses and its DCCW stayed intact for at least one result.