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Hi, I need help beating this tyranid player. I havent fought him yet but every tells me that hes far the best. Even better then the Ork player i mentioned during my other Topic. I wondered if anyone had any certain tactics or basic tactics against Tyranids and i hope alot of people respond.

MY army:
HQ:
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit 35 Points
-Missile Pods (Twin-linked) 18 Points
-Shield Generator 10 Points
-Gun Drones x2 20 Points
83 Points

Elites :
XV25 Stealth Suits x3 90 Points
-Burst Cannons (Standard Weaponry)
-Stealth Suits (Standard Weaponry)
90 Points

Troops :
Fire Warrior Caste x12 w/ DevilFish 200 Points
-Pulse Rifles (Standard Weaponry)
-Burst Cannons (Devil Fish, Standard Weaponry)
-Smart Missile Systems (Devil Fish, Secondary Weaponry) 20 Points
-Flechette Discharger (Devil Fish) 10 Points
230 Points

Kroot Carnivore Squad x12 w/ Shaper 105 Points
-Kroot Rifles (Standard Weaponry)
105 Points

Fast Attack :
Piranha 60 Points
-Burst Cannon (Standard Weaponry)
-Flechette Discharger 10 Points
70 Points

Gun Drone Squadron x2 24 Points
-Pulse Carbines (Standard Weaponry)
24 Points

Total Points : 602

His army (i think)

Hive Tyrant w/guard
3 warriors
8 genestealers
16 spine gaunts
16 horma gaunts
Carnifex

Nick who told you his army list? Also is that army for 1000pt. or 500pt. Im guessing its 1000 just because its so large I think.

If this was the army list board, I'd talk about this:
- You only have one Crisis Suit. This is a problem. You need more special weapon (missile pod, plasma rifle, fusion blaster) platforms for your Tau army.
- Drop the Gun Drones for your HQ. I can't quote chapter and verse, but they do something that negates your HQ's IC status. Use the points to buy a Stimulant Injector.
- Your Gun Drone squadron is basically a kill point waiting to happen (not to mention illegal - you need 4 drones per team minimum). Fold these models into your Stealthsuit team/Firewarrior teams.
- Add a Targeting Array to your Devilfish, and a Multi-tracker.
- Don't be afraid of dropping the Kroot Shaper to free up points.

With that out of the way, I'd be very impressed if your opponent could fit all that into a 600 point list, but here are some general guidelines.


1) Kill the Fast Things First
The fastest units in his army are what need to die first. Right now it looks like the Hormagaunts, which are ridiculously easy to kill with a Tau army.

If he outflanks with his Genestealers, castling is a tactic that is thrown around the boards. Leaving the Kroot and Piranha drones on the flanks to guard wouldn't be terrible either.

If his Warriors have wings, kill them first over anything else.

2) Focus Fire.
Pretty straightforward. Considering half a dozen Hormaguants can ruin your day, you need to make sure the squad you're shooting is no longer around at the end of the shooting phase.

This also means knowing which units to ignore - for example, you have almost nothing in your army that can threaten his Carnifex - ignore it.

Miscellaneous...
- Outflank your Stealthsuits. It'll give him one less target to devour on the board and puts him somewhat on the defensive (even against his Warriors, your suits are wounding on 3's)
- Keep your Firewarriors inside the Devilfish for as long as possible. There's no point in deploying them to rapid fire if they're just going to get charged by the Termagaunts behind the Hormagaunts or pie plated to death by a Barbed Strangler the following turn.
- Shoot with your Kroot. Even the Termagaunts outclass you in assault (higher I and they have an armour save). The S4 AP6 rapid fire is going to be much more valuable than piles of dead Kroot bodies in assault.

Fight well for the Greater Good!

Tau are pretty much screwed when the new codex come out.

The new codex has come out. Here is link. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=6700002a
there are also some new miniatures.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry I didn't notice you had the point total. Silly me.

Nick, you should just keep all your "Please Help against ____" in one thread, it'll be easier to keep track of it.

orchewer wrote:If this was the army list board, I'd talk about this:
- You only have one Crisis Suit. This is a problem. You need more special weapon (missile pod, plasma rifle, fusion blaster) platforms for your Tau army.
- Drop the Gun Drones for your HQ. I can't quote chapter and verse, but they do something that negates your HQ's IC status. Use the points to buy a Stimulant Injector.
- Your Gun Drone squadron is basically a kill point waiting to happen (not to mention illegal - you need 4 drones per team minimum). Fold these models into your Stealthsuit team/Firewarrior teams.
- Add a Targeting Array to your Devilfish, and a Multi-tracker.
- Don't be afraid of dropping the Kroot Shaper to free up points.

With that out of the way, I'd be very impressed if your opponent could fit all that into a 600 point list, but here are some general guidelines.


1) Kill the Fast Things First
The fastest units in his army are what need to die first. Right now it looks like the Hormagaunts, which are ridiculously easy to kill with a Tau army.

If he outflanks with his Genestealers, castling is a tactic that is thrown around the boards. Leaving the Kroot and Piranha drones on the flanks to guard wouldn't be terrible either.

If his Warriors have wings, kill them first over anything else.

2) Focus Fire.
Pretty straightforward. Considering half a dozen Hormaguants can ruin your day, you need to make sure the squad you're shooting is no longer around at the end of the shooting phase.

This also means knowing which units to ignore - for example, you have almost nothing in your army that can threaten his Carnifex - ignore it.

Miscellaneous...
- Outflank your Stealthsuits. It'll give him one less target to devour on the board and puts him somewhat on the defensive (even against his Warriors, your suits are wounding on 3's)
- Keep your Firewarriors inside the Devilfish for as long as possible. There's no point in deploying them to rapid fire if they're just going to get charged by the Termagaunts behind the Hormagaunts or pie plated to death by a Barbed Strangler the following turn.
- Shoot with your Kroot. Even the Termagaunts outclass you in assault (higher I and they have an armour save). The S4 AP6 rapid fire is going to be much more valuable than piles of dead Kroot bodies in assault.

Fight well for the Greater Good!

Thanks but one thing I'm pretty sure but i might be wrong, i think im allowed the 2 drones to be in the Xv8's Team as part of its weaponry

O yeah eric if i did keep it all in 1 Topic than it would be too long and no one would read it and I would end up having no posts

Nick wrote:Hi, I need help beating this tyranid player. I havent fought him yet but every tells me that hes far the best. Even better then the Ork player i mentioned during my other Topic. I wondered if anyone had any certain tactics or basic tactics against Tyranids and i hope alot of people respond.

MY army:
HQ:
XV8 Crisis Battlesuit 35 Points
-Missile Pods (Twin-linked) 18 Points
-Shield Generator 10 Points
-Gun Drones x2 20 Points
83 Points

Elites :
XV25 Stealth Suits x3 90 Points
-Burst Cannons (Standard Weaponry)
-Stealth Suits (Standard Weaponry)
90 Points

Troops :
Fire Warrior Caste x12 w/ DevilFish 200 Points
-Pulse Rifles (Standard Weaponry)
-Burst Cannons (Devil Fish, Standard Weaponry)
-Smart Missile Systems (Devil Fish, Secondary Weaponry) 20 Points
-Flechette Discharger (Devil Fish) 10 Points
230 Points

Kroot Carnivore Squad x12 w/ Shaper 105 Points
-Kroot Rifles (Standard Weaponry)
105 Points

Fast Attack :
Piranha 60 Points
-Burst Cannon (Standard Weaponry)
-Flechette Discharger 10 Points
70 Points

Gun Drone Squadron x2 24 Points
-Pulse Carbines (Standard Weaponry)
24 Points

Total Points : 602

His army (i think)

Hive Tyrant w/guard
3 warriors
8 genestealers
16 spine gaunts
16 horma gaunts
Carnifex

Ok for starters your HQ is the wrong point value, kroot hands down will lose to guants of any flavor points shooting and close combat... they one have 2 attacks normal they cost more... they have like no save and their initiative isn't good enough to deal with that stuff...... point of point drop these guys and try and fit another devilfish with Flechette Discharger. Crisis suits deep striked with twin-plasma and fusion will take down a carnifex in no time flat along with the warriors....stealth suits not so much... and I'd say save yourself some points by cutting down your fire warrior squad to min. Here's how I see it:

crisis shas'el(hq) w/ plasma fusion multi-tracker
crisisx2 shas'ui(elite) w/ plasma fusion multi-tracker

2x firewarrior x6 squads with devilfish

hammerhead with ion cannon

this provides the hits to take out his carnifex by dropping down the suits and shooting everything (9 ap2 or better shots), ion cannon to take out the warriors which will send all the gaunts running, and all you have to do is keep everything moving atleast 6 inches (or 12 with the devilfish if you dont' need to fire them) to force him to roll 6's to hit and thats if you don't keep mostly everything in the middle where his genestealers can't outflank easily. Even then they have low armor saves so popping out your firewarriors and/or drones will rape them.

My Hq is at the wrong point total?

Nick wrote:My Hq is at the wrong point total?

35 is for the bodyguard not the commanders

Also gun drone squadrons are a minimum of 4 models.

If I were you I would make a brand new list.

Include 3 XV8 suits with plasma and missile pods.
HQ same

2 squads of 6 firewarriors in devilfish.

A hammerhead.

That would be my list...around 600 points with relevant upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops...maybe closer to 700. My mistake.

Lukus83 wrote:Also gun drone squadrons are a minimum of 4 models.

If I were you I would make a brand new list.

Include 3 XV8 suits with plasma and missile pods.
HQ same

2 squads of 6 firewarriors in devilfish.

A hammerhead.

That would be my list...around 600 points with relevant upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops...maybe closer to 700. My mistake.

the battlesuits are fine, fire warriors, fine, the hammerhead......... give it ion gun and burstcannon, great aginst low toughness enemies.

also, you need stealth suits, they can be really annoying to the enemy if used properly

shas'o vera wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Also gun drone squadrons are a minimum of 4 models.

If I were you I would make a brand new list.

Include 3 XV8 suits with plasma and missile pods.
HQ same

2 squads of 6 firewarriors in devilfish.

A hammerhead.

That would be my list...around 600 points with relevant upgrades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oops...maybe closer to 700. My mistake.

the battlesuits are fine, fire warriors, fine, the hammerhead......... give it ion gun and burstcannon, great aginst low toughness enemies.

also, you need stealth suits, they can be really annoying to the enemy if used properly

at 600 points there's no more room really....

also he needs nice ap so he can get rid of the two big threats and then he wouldn't need stealth suits to deal with the large groups.... also stealth suits don't work on an old nid list because those gaunts have fleet or are beasts so they'd get into cc and you'd lose a kp.... stealth suits are less important than tanks

plasma rifles and nother such weapons can do that

HQ 87
MP/Plas/Multi

Crisis Team 141
TL MP/Flamer
TL MP/Flamer
TL Mp/Flamer

6 fws + Fish + dpod = 145

6Fws

Hammer head = 170
rail gun, bust cannons, multi, dpod, target lock

603pts

Just dont get those 6 foot slogging fire warriors killed in a way that brings his guys closer to you (dont let them get assaulted where it speeds his army up)

Actually in this case I would suggest going gunline, the fastest moving thing he has are the hormagaunts which die in droves to pulse rifle fire as do genestealers. At 600 points I would do something like this

Shas'el
FB,PR,Multi
87

3x crisis FB,PR, Multi
186

8x FCW's
80
8x FCW's
80
8x FCW's
80
8x FCW's
80

just castle up in the center of the board and shoot at whatever is closest, even if he drop pods in 32 firewarriors in rapidfire range will put about 25ish wounds on gaunts, and when the carnifex and tyrant come a knocking just bounce your crisis suits up into rapidfire range and watch them disappear in one turn.

I have yet to lose to tyranids in my whole 40k career using that tactic, and yes I realize a bunch of nid players are going to come in here and say they could beat it doing this that or the other thing. Yes I'm sure you could however I personally haven't seen it yet so hopefully someday we could play and you could knock me off my high horse. In the meantime using massed firewarriors as bait to draw people into killzones hasn't failed me yet.

shas'o vera wrote:plasma rifles and nother such weapons can do that

if you look at the list i made up highe you can see i had plasma in mind... my thing is kill the big'uns and make their gaunts run off the board....sucess


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm guessing this guy is running dakka fexes and warriors with guns if you don't gank them with low ap stuff it'll be too late


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aftersong wrote:Actually in this case I would suggest going gunline, the fastest moving thing he has are the hormagaunts which die in droves to pulse rifle fire as do genestealers. At 600 points I would do something like this

Shas'el
FB,PR,Multi
87

3x crisis FB,PR, Multi
186

8x FCW's
80
8x FCW's
80
8x FCW's
80
8x FCW's
80

just castle up in the center of the board and shoot at whatever is closest, even if he drop pods in 32 firewarriors in rapidfire range will put about 25ish wounds on gaunts, and when the carnifex and tyrant come a knocking just bounce your crisis suits up into rapidfire range and watch them disappear in one turn.

I have yet to lose to tyranids in my whole 40k career using that tactic, and yes I realize a bunch of nid players are going to come in here and say they could beat it doing this that or the other thing. Yes I'm sure you could however I personally haven't seen it yet so hopefully someday we could play and you could knock me off my high horse. In the meantime using massed firewarriors as bait to draw people into killzones hasn't failed me yet.

i like the FB,PR suits but if your not running mech your fire warriors will be chewed up by dakka-fex so fast your head will spin and don't even get me going on infiltrating genestealers cause there goes another gun line..... old codex has the ability to wipe out three or four gun lines in one turn in shooting. seriously mech them nids have hard times vs mech

I have never had a problem with infiltrating stealers, rapid fire vaporizes them, and even if a squad manages to get through then great you wipe the fcw's on the charge and are staring down the rest of the armies guns in rapid fire range when your turn ends.

I'll trade you squads of stealers for firewarriors 1 for 1 when I got to spend 2 or 3 turns shooting at you already, I'll make that trade all day long.

As for dakka fexes what kind of point totals are we talking about here 1 dakka fex in a 600 point list is not going to shoot down 32 firewarriors before the crisis suits put him in the ground.

Aftersong wrote:I have never had a problem with infiltrating stealers, rapid fire vaporizes them, and even if a squad manages to get through then great you wipe the fcw's on the charge and are staring down the rest of the armies guns in rapid fire range when your turn ends.

I'll trade you squads of stealers for firewarriors 1 for 1 when I got to spend 2 or 3 turns shooting at you already, I'll make that trade all day long.

As for dakka fexes what kind of point totals are we talking about here 1 dakka fex in a 600 point list is not going to shoot down 32 firewarriors before the crisis suits put him in the ground.

1 twin linked living ammo dakka fex with 8 shots will take out a squad for very very cheep... warriors probably running good guns too... so genestealers+carnifex+warriors+gaunts will equal alot of dead tau on the first turn... 80x3 is 240 thats more than 1/3 your force on turn one because you can't deal with the amount of firepower coming from nids when you only have a 4+ save and a ld of 7. also depending on how you have your firing lines you'll give them cover saves which you really dont' wanna give nids... firing lines don't work for tau...they just don't. They work for guard because gaurd have better ld, a heavy weapons choice, and the ability to not cost as much as a firewarrior.

tau are a mech army if your winning with non mech tau your playing against bad players. Ld 7 should run and scream like little girls

Still playing on a 2x3 board Nick?

I always find hammerheads to be superb against nids. Submunition blast kills small bugs in droves, solid shot brings the pain to big bugs. Kroot initiative is too low to do much against nids.

It will be important to pay attention to his deployment. If he reserves his stealers to flank, deploy yours at least 16" away from the short board edges (preferably over 18" away) if you deployed first, start Moving away from the short edges as quickly as possible. If he infiltrates the stealers, focus fire on them to kill them as fast as possible. Really you need to kill them in the first turn so you can kill the hormagaunts in turn 2.

And don't forget, a lucky 6 on the run will get his stealers into assault turn 1 if he infiltrated 18" away.

Once his fast units are down, you should be able to out manuver and out shoot him

kitsunez wrote:1 twin linked living ammo dakka fex with 8 shots will take out a squad for very very cheep... warriors probably running good guns too... so genestealers+carnifex+warriors+gaunts will equal alot of dead tau on the first turn... 80x3 is 240 thats more than 1/3 your force on turn one because you can't deal with the amount of firepower coming from nids when you only have a 4+ save and a ld of 7. also depending on how you have your firing lines you'll give them cover saves which you really dont' wanna give nids... firing lines don't work for tau...they just don't. They work for guard because gaurd have better ld, a heavy weapons choice, and the ability to not cost as much as a firewarrior.

tau are a mech army if your winning with non mech tau your playing against bad players. Ld 7 should run and scream like little girls

Well first off your math is a little shoddy, a dakkafex with TL devourers and enhanced senses comes in at 113 points not 80 giving you a 339 point investment before you have even bought an hq which is what bare minimum about 100 points? leaving you 161 points with which to buy those genestealers that are going to crush my line? Secondly you have greatly over estimated their killing power vs Fire warriors

8 shots at bs3 twinlinked

8*.75=6

6 hits at str 6 rerolling to wound

6*.92=5.52

No armor penetration so saving on 4 +

5.52*.5 = 2.76

so lets even be generous and say 3 dead firewarriors a turn so your 3 dakkafexes constituting over half your armies points value (at the proposed 600 point limit) are only killing 9 firewarriors a turn and that is only after lumbering into range. by the time they are able to shoot their devourers massed str 5 shots have already annihilated your minimal troops choices leaving your big bugs all alone to get chewed apart by the crisis suits they can never even get range on to fire back.

Tau are a mech army but that doesn't mean they can't make use of static components. Are you going to tell me that broadsides are useless? No it just takes a different approach to army building. A big blob of notoriously squishy firewarriors is the lure by which you draw your enemies into your killzones, it's kauyon at it's finest. They charge headlong with dreams of free kp's dancing in their heads when suddenly the markerlights start flashing and the mobile elements sandwich them in as they die in droves.

You actually have to force a leadership test before leadership becomes an issue, dying in a well prepared killzone does not accomplish that.

Aftersong wrote:

kitsunez wrote:1 twin linked living ammo dakka fex with 8 shots will take out a squad for very very cheep... warriors probably running good guns too... so genestealers+carnifex+warriors+gaunts will equal alot of dead tau on the first turn... 80x3 is 240 thats more than 1/3 your force on turn one because you can't deal with the amount of firepower coming from nids when you only have a 4+ save and a ld of 7. also depending on how you have your firing lines you'll give them cover saves which you really dont' wanna give nids... firing lines don't work for tau...they just don't. They work for guard because gaurd have better ld, a heavy weapons choice, and the ability to not cost as much as a firewarrior.

tau are a mech army if your winning with non mech tau your playing against bad players. Ld 7 should run and scream like little girls

Well first off your math is a little shoddy, a dakkafex with TL devourers and enhanced senses comes in at 113 points not 80 giving you a 339 point investment before you have even bought an hq which is what bare minimum about 100 points? leaving you 161 points with which to buy those genestealers that are going to crush my line? Secondly you have greatly over estimated their killing power vs Fire warriors

8 shots at bs3 twinlinked

8*.75=6

6 hits at str 6 rerolling to wound

6*.92=5.52

No armor penetration so saving on 4 +

5.52*.5 = 2.76

so lets even be generous and say 3 dead firewarriors a turn so your 3 dakkafexes constituting over half your armies points value (at the proposed 600 point limit) are only killing 9 firewarriors a turn and that is only after lumbering into range. by the time they are able to shoot their devourers massed str 5 shots have already annihilated your minimal troops choices leaving your big bugs all alone to get chewed apart by the crisis suits they can never even get range on to fire back.

Tau are a mech army but that doesn't mean they can't make use of static components. Are you going to tell me that broadsides are useless? No it just takes a different approach to army building. A big blob of notoriously squishy firewarriors is the lure by which you draw your enemies into your killzones, it's kauyon at it's finest. They charge headlong with dreams of free kp's dancing in their heads when suddenly the markerlights start flashing and the mobile elements sandwich them in as they die in droves.

You actually have to force a leadership test before leadership becomes an issue, dying in a well prepared killzone does not accomplish that.

What math? the only thing I said was that three 8 man squads are near 1/3rd of your points in a 600 point army....mathhammer is fantastic untill you play a game and then your averages mean gak. where did 339 come from? i mean you seem to think I'm talking about him fielding 3 fexes which is not the case. Your putting words in my mouth and pulling fact from your rear.

He posted an army list of the opponent without the specifics how bout you look at that and stop trying to outdo me with your silly gunlines that don't work.... also enjoy your ld7 at 600 points cause my tau in tanks won't have to care.

Meh.

Ninja tau in this case or go full mech; they can't kill your firewarriors without killing the devilfish and 'nids don't have the range while your hammerhead and broadsides wreak havoc.

agnosto wrote:Meh.

Ninja tau in this case or go full mech; they can't kill your firewarriors without killing the devilfish and 'nids don't have the range while your hammerhead and broadsides wreak havoc.

this man gets a prize 3 free internets!

kitsunez wrote:

agnosto wrote:Meh.

Ninja tau in this case or go full mech; they can't kill your firewarriors without killing the devilfish and 'nids don't have the range while your hammerhead and broadsides wreak havoc.

this man gets a prize 3 free internets!

and a piece of obviously pie

Wow, what luck I have today. Here I was enjoying my 3, free internets and this other gentleman comes along and gives me some pie.

Keep it on topic, people.

Being a nid player i can say that gun lines do work as the Str 5 basic at 30" reeks havoc on my guants i mostly field horma fo speed munchies but Rapid fire wont help a gun line as at 12" if you dont kill all the broods ur still gonna go splat.

As for the fex ignore it as it can only move 6" and if it runs it cant shoot or assualt any way as long as you deploy a good 24"+ away its useless, Unless its a heavy gun fex 2x barb easy kills on ur FCW's big template with re-rolls firing on the move

the Tyrant again ignore it unless its getting close then hamemr it and hamemr it hard if you take hamemr head(s) hamemr it with solid as soon as you finish submuning guants

Stealers mass fire as soon as you got LoS on them they wont last long you ignore even their improved armour and wound them on 3+

Warriors provide better synapse range than tyrant and can be harder to kill due to more wounds but again arnt that scary

so to surmise

Guants = AoE them down
Stealers = Concntrate fire
MC's = Ignore unless they are dangerously close
Warriors = just blast em when you run out of guants to shoot

Just remember like others have said shoot whats closet and make sure you lave not one alive from the brood

as for ur list
Burst cannons = scores of dead beasties
Vahicle mounted Rail guns = Aoe for little beast's and Uber Bam for MC's

Also same goes against preety much any horde army just mass fire them into oblivion target whats closets as thats 9/10 gonna rip you to pieces if you ignore it for bigger targets