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is there anything against the rules with walking troops under a defiler? I see it like having guard under the wings of a valk.

Technically there is nothing preventing it, so long as there is actually room under the for the models. (Which isn't a 'the rules don't say I can't' argument, since the normal movement rules allow it unless something specifically prohibits it).

You'll find that most players will frown on it, though... it would go into the same category as standing models on top of a tank. People generally interpret the rule on page 11 about not moving into the space occupied by another model as applying to models being on top of one another.

skkipper wrote:is there anything against the rules with walking troops under a defiler? I see it like having guard under the wings of a valk.

But valks can fly !

But the difference between standing under a Defiler (assuming room to actually do it) and standing under the wings of a Valkyrie, is just a matter of degrees.


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LunaHound wrote:

skkipper wrote:is there anything against the rules with walking troops under a defiler? I see it like having guard under the wings of a valk.

But valks can fly !

And?

I am hoping for a; "This means X because of Y as show on page Z".

insaniak wrote:You'll find that most players will frown on it, though... it would go into the same category as standing models on top of a tank. People generally interpret the rule on page 11 about not moving into the space occupied by another model as applying to models being on top of one another.

That and the rule stating other models count as impassable making it impossible most of the time.

I disagree with the "most of the time".
This shows up all the time. we just rarely take notice.

Steelmage99 wrote:I disagree with the "most of the time".
This shows up all the time. we just rarely take notice.

My statement was in response to one about placing models on top of tanks or physically on top of eachother.
I agree that if you aren't breaking any movement rules, you appear to be able to walk freely under many vehicles.

That and the fact that the defiler isn't taking up the space under it. So really, walking under the model isn't taking the model's owned space.

That and the fact that fluffwise a guardsman went under a defiler to shoot it with a meltagun makes this idea fairly realistic.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I disagree with the "most of the time".
This shows up all the time. we just rarely take notice.

My statement was in response to one about placing models on top of tanks or physically on top of eachother.
I agree that if you aren't breaking any movement rules, you appear to be able to walk freely under many vehicles.

Movement wise i done see why not. I coudl see it causing a problem in shooting and/or assaulting.

If you wanted to charge the unit under the defiler, would you have to charge the defiler as well?

Coudl the unit claim a cover save from being underneath the defiler? Sayign that, it is just the same as being behind a tank so on second thoughts it would probably be ok.

As long as you are 1" away from the model while underneath it's fine.

BD - if it is friendly to you you do not need to be more than 1" away. If you are assaulting an enemy who is underneath the defiler you are explicitly allowed to move within 1"

it depends on your interpretation of "space occupied by another model" really. Some players look at this as a the area below and above the model...like not stacking skimmers and such where they can overlap. However like it has been brought up before when the valk was released that trying to keep the whole model not over any other model is next to impossible.

Cover is probably the biggest issue here. If you have a unit using the Defiler/Soul Grinder for cover, then it is a question of whether that should be allowed. Same with the Valkyrie.

What if a unit is under the Walker and it is damaged? How would this affect the cover provided.

I'm not really sure what the answer is but I think it would raise a lot of questions in the game.

I would let you. Reasons:

It is not a skimmer (ref. 1st paragraph of "Moving skimmers" BGB pg.71)

It would be like taking cover from a bombardment (mortars?) & I could feasibly see troops doing such.

The walker could be attempting to stride over the troops & into the thick of battle rather than go around them & possibly expose a flank/ take extra time to get there (again feasible & tactically sound)

As far as cover, I would give it a 4+ from barrage weapons (following barrage & cover saves rules i.e. the template lands on the defiler but the infantry are below the template) but from direct fire they would have to be hiding behind the legs or somehow less visible.

@ nos - correct, if its friendly/assault that is the case. A first glance i thought that was a SM under the defiler (too early lol)

As far as cover goes the rules don't really cover the situation (shocker). If 50% of the unit is partially blocked by the model then it would be a 4+ just like hiding behind a tank. If using blast and template weapons it gets a little sticky. The closest thing to the situation is the ruins rules in this instance.

If wrecked it's prob best to just go with INAT's rule on valks of "move the model the minimum distance to not be over any models or within 1" of enemy models." If GW can't clearly rule on valks in this situation god help us for all other situations.

I would give no cover to blast markers.

Assuming the blast marker is over both models, the requirements are met to affect both models -- "under the blast".

Only ruins allow for cover saves and demand top level strikes.

though if most of the squads was behind the defiler and only a few were under you would get cover saves.

Only if they are in cover. Firing through visible gaps in one model is as easily to debate no cover as it is to say that models can stand under each other.

From page 22 on gaining cover saves from other units: "through the gaps between models in an intervening unit"

kirsanth wrote:Only if they are in cover. Firing through visible gaps in one model is as easily to debate no cover as it is to say that models can stand under each other.

From page 22 on gaining cover saves from other units: "through the gaps between models in an intervening unit"

that is where the cover rules work as i claim cover from legs you say no, I then get a 5+ cover

Shrug. if the debate is whether enough of the unit is in cover or whether you should be able to claim cover without rules suport, I will claim all my guys in the open get it too, and you say no, I get 5+.

I invoke the law of Jervis Prime.

He can walk under it, on a 4+.

kirsanth wrote:Shrug. if the debate is whether enough of the unit is in cover or whether you should be able to claim cover without rules suport, I will claim all my guys in the open get it too, and you say no, I get 5+.

if most of my squads is behind the defiler you are firing through a model to shoot the others, they are in cover. if a single model was under the defiler then that becomes debatable.

That is not what the cover rules say.

page 21

" if a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models it recieves a 4+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind area terrian."

page 22 says if you are firing through area terrian or gaps between models even if you in the open it still counts as cover


firing between the legs of would be considered gaps between models

skkipper wrote:page 21

" if a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by other models it recieves a 4+ cover save in the same way as if it was behind area terrian."

page 22 says if you are firing through area terrian or gaps between models even if you in the open it still counts as cover


firing between the legs of would be considered gaps between models

Gaps in an individual model are not "gaps between models in an intervening unit". They don't qualify for the gap cover exception.

You even quoted the rule that shows you are wrong: the models must physically be 'partially hidden from view' to qualify for cover. Not just be behind the thing relative to the firer.
You also didn't quote it right, area terrain is not part of that sentence.

I could easily put a gretchin on either side and fire clean under a defiler with no cover granted.

Shouldn't a defiler be considered to have a base? If it doesn't, how do we figure out how many models can get into contact with it? Can models stand on top of each other's bases? I am farily new to the game, so there are actual questions, not assumptions.

the chances of a squad not being partial obscured are low so yes in some case you could shot and get no cover saves. you are right if guys go under the defiler it opens up the possibity to getting shot with no cover . if you don't allow guys to go under a defiler. cover automaticly is granted because then you are saying the space under the defiler is the defiler those resulting in shooting through the model.





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the defiler has no base.

skkipper wrote:cover automaticly is granted because then you are saying the space under the defiler is the defiler those resulting in shooting through the model.

TLoS means this is incorrect. The model is the model, not the space around it.

sleepysnagrund wrote:Shouldn't a defiler be considered to have a base?

Only if it has a base.

If it doesn't, how do we figure out how many models can get into contact with it?

As per the Walker rules for walkers without bases, you move assaulting models into contact with the hull (which includes the legs... which is good, because the actual main body section is usually unreachable).

Can models stand on top of each other's bases?

Models are considered impassable terrain (rulebook, page 13), so no. Moving onto another model's base would require moving over impassable terrain.

(The exception here would be for skimmers, which are allowed to end their move over impassable terrain. So a skimmer can sit on another model's base if it can be physically placed there, but takes a Dangerous terrain test...)