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Q. Picture this: My Grey Hunters unit including
Ragnar Blackmane is assaulted and makes a
successful Leadership test to Counter-attack. Do
they then benefit from his Furious Charge ability
(+1 S and +1 I)? Also, can the original assaulter
then deploy defensive grenades to rob the Space
Wolves of their Counter-attack bonus?
A. The Counter-attack special rule states ‘all
models in the unit get the +1 assault bonus to
their attacks, exactly as if they too had assaulted
that turn.’ Therefore Ragnar’s unit does indeed
benefit from Furious Charge. Also, we think it is a
bit rich for an assaulting unit to get the bonus for
attacking and defending, so no, defensive
grenades cannot be used to negate the bonus
attack from counter-attacking.

This question is from the Space Wolf FAQ released earlier today. It totally changes every ruling made about if Furious Charge, or any assaulting bonus, works when you use Counter Attack. I know I've argued a number of times that they did not work together, so this is a heads up. If your group or tournament uses the GW FAQs, be prepared.

The GW FAQ is contradicting clear RaW and is thus wrong and is thus ignored.

So sayeth gwar!

Also, removing the linebreaks would make it much nicer to read

So what units have this combo? Is this even an issue?

Ragnar + Grey Hunters have it

Also, we think it is a
bit rich for an assaulting unit to get the bonus for
attacking and defending

Wow, way to go, morons. Who cares how you feel about it? It's what the rules say, or don't say.

Phryxis wrote:

Also, we think it is a
bit rich for an assaulting unit to get the bonus for
attacking and defending

Wow, way to go, morons. Who cares how you feel about it? It's what the rules say, or don't say.

Yup, yet another case of The GW FAQ is contradicting clear RaW and is thus wrong and is thus ignored.

I know Gaunts will have access to both Furious Charge and Counter Charge in the new book.

Kind of silly imo but its gonna make gaunts much much more usefull in the new nid dex.

Unless they have a way to boost their leadership, or they automatically pass the test not really.

Straken gives both FC and CA to units within 12".

Gwar! wrote:The GW FAQ is contradicting clear RaW and is thus wrong and is thus ignored.

Most places play using the GW FAQs (I know you don't). It's worth noting, even for you, say if you wanted to go play at 'ard Boyz.

I play by GW FAQs, I have never stated that I don't.

I don't however use the answers that contradict clear RaW

Well, then that's not playing by the FAQs. Just like someone wouldn't be playing by the INAT FAQ if they used your website, even though there is a significant overlap in the answers.

Leth wrote:Unless they have a way to boost their leadership, or they automatically pass the test not really.

well just so happens that the unit (Tervigons) that give gants Counter-assault (and can give them furious charge and poison) gives them it's LD 10.

Grah. If they're already butchering things, at least let defensive grenades work.

"...we think it is a bit rich for an assaulting unit to get the bonus for attacking and defending..." however, it is not a bit rich to give the defending unit the bonus for attacking and defending.

airmang wrote:

Leth wrote:Unless they have a way to boost their leadership, or they automatically pass the test not really.

well just so happens that the unit (Tervigons) that give gants Counter-assault (and can give them furious charge and poison) gives them it's LD 10.

It's worth noting the Tervigon supports Termagants, and not Hormagaunts, and that one less attack will mean all the difference when dealing with the furious charge counter attack.

Personally I thought the RAW here had the potential to go both ways, so I'm not that shocked by the ruling.

edit: Just to clarify, not saying you had it wrong airmang, simply pointing it out for others.

Yeah but in that case it's the Shoota Boy versus Slugga Boy argument.

Termagaunts can safely dakka away at BS3 S4/poisoned and sit there effectively screening the Tervigon from assault. If your assault unit does want to bust through it it's going against a 2A unit that wounds 75% of the time versus T4. 90% of the time it will have FNP as well, so only true assault squads are going to be able to break through with any reliability.

For FREE MODELS, generated by a 195 pt MC, this is a huge buff.

Those Termagants will also be going before most of the things assaulting them, with Furious charge. So they can possibly really hurt the assaulters before they even get to assault.

I don't think the new Toxin Sacs help your shooting, only CC attacks.

They'll actually put a pretty ferocious beating on MEQs, even Terminators.

Let's say it's a 15 model unit. 30 attacks, 15 hit, 11 wounds at I5.

~4 MEQ dead, possibly including the sergeant due to saturation. Regular Tacticals are going to get 12-13 attacks back, wounding 6-7, but armor and FNP means only 3 die. CSM or GH are going to get 18-19 attacks back, so they'll kill 5 or so, but it's still horrible return to lose 60 pts of models to a free bug spam squad.

a tervigon with termagants (or even worse: devourer Gants) castling up in a piece of terrain (preferably near an objective) are going to be a tough nut to crack.

In the assault phase, certainly. It's still "just" a T6 MC with 4 wounds, so unless it's obscured 50% the Tervi doesn't get cover.

2 Vendettas should be able to reliably vaporize a Tervigon every shooting phase.

Tervigons have 6 wounds.

Phryxis wrote:

Also, we think it is a
bit rich for an assaulting unit to get the bonus for
attacking and defending

Wow, way to go, morons. Who cares how you feel about it? It's what the rules say, or don't say.

This really suprised me. But it is what it is. In one sweeping blow, they have changed RAW that was actually clear and presise to begin with. They redefined counter assualt to be an assault and at the same time, they added a caveot that defensive grenades cannot be used against counter chargeing models. Very GW of them.

Gwar! wrote:The GW FAQ is contradicting clear RaW and is thus wrong and is thus ignored.

So sayeth gwar!

Also, removing the linebreaks would make it much nicer to read

Gwar! wrote:

Phryxis wrote:

Also, we think it is a
bit rich for an assaulting unit to get the bonus for
attacking and defending

Wow, way to go, morons. Who cares how you feel about it? It's what the rules say, or don't say.

Yup, yet another case of The GW FAQ is contradicting clear RaW and is thus wrong and is thus ignored.

Gwar! wrote:I play by GW FAQs, I have never stated that I don't.

I don't however use the answers that contradict clear RaW

You do know, that if you say the same thing in the same tone often enough, it stops being recognizable as words and turns into just another repetitive noise, sort of like a mosquito fluttering around your face? That's you legacy Gwar!, just thought you oughta know.

It won't be That bad, at least not with the Free units. After size of a free brood is only 10, and will likely be much fewer when you charge them, as you'll get pistol/flamer shots off first to thin their numbers. Or if you simply kill the Tervigon first, they'll lose all of the CC awesomesause and take a bunch of wounds from his loud popping sound.

airmang wrote:Tervigons have 6 wounds.

My mistake. Ah well, 3 Vendettas, then.

Well if its in the GW FAQ, then its pretty much law. You cant pick and choose what you do and do not like from there. Sure, you can play ignorant and hope no one notices, but eventually youll run into a guy that prints the FAQ to show you your doing it wrong (a like meh!)
Sorry GWAR you might not like it, and stomp around making a bunch of noise, but this COMES FROM GW. Its not some council that runs tournaments or someone that knows alot about the rules. These are the guys that make the rules. It might suck, but thats the way of it

Hmmz, the faq doesn't say that 'any' unit benefits from having CA and FC, only 'Ragnar's'. Could this be a ruling just for that particular situation? A nice little shiny buff for Mr Blackmane and no-one else?

Actually KingCracker the FAQ bit is simply house rules recommended and used by GW. Players are free to ignore them as they wish. The Errata bits are the actual ironclad rules changes.

HOWEVER, I have never attended a tourney where GW FAQs were ignored. Although it's in the 'GW House Rule Section', I fully expect to run into Furious-Charging, Counterattacking Termagaunts in the near future.

Heck, I might even dust off Straken. This is a bit of a game changer for certain scenarios, no doubt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

J.Black wrote:Hmmz, the faq doesn't say that 'any' unit benefits from having CA and FC, only 'Ragnar's'. Could this be a ruling just for that particular situation? A nice little shiny buff for Mr Blackmane and no-one else?

Not really. Ragnar simply grants Furious Charge (it's not even worded differently in his special rules) and the FAQ clarifies how Furious Charge and Counterattack interact.

Can this be the "let's discuss the new Space Wolves FAQ" thread since it seems pointless for me to make another thread about other responses.

Q. Can an Independent Character that has
joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about
if he has the Saga of the Hunter?
A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking
unit if he has the ability to outflank because of
the Saga of the Hunter.

Just seems useless to me, obviously he can't outflank if he isn't entitled to, but they really fail to touch on the big problem with outflanking an IC with Saga of the Hunter alongside Wolf Scouts, which is that a) The scouts should lose their special rules since the IC doesn't have them, and b) The IC isn't entitled to the scouts' special outflank, but it is the only outflank the scouts can do. I try and play by the FAQs where I can but this is just a useless answer because it vaguely hints they can outflank together but doesn't explain how...