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Has anyone faced this guy yet?

I declare cheese. Super Cheese. Holy Swiss Cheese Batman (It's Cheese, Swiss and full of holes).

For those who haven't faced him yet, he is one of the best jack casters in the game. He had a huge overall from Mki where he was totally rubbish, to Mkii where he is just insane.

This is what I tested my Trolls against...

Amon
Repenter
4x Dervish
Fire of Salvation

2x Full Choir
2x Vassal
Vassal
Covenant

Total = 35 pts

After a really bloody fight I lost against this list, I just couldn't get past his Wall of Jacks, which had as many, if not more Buffs than my army had.

Amon
This guys spells buff his Jacks to insane levels with buffs to speed and cumaltive hits. He's also quite an effective beatstick as he can ignore Buffs to DEF and ARM and can ignore overboosting. Oh he also has Thresher with a good MAT and insane P+S. His feat is the perfect counter to any knockdown based armies.

Repenter
It's there for clearing infantry with it's spray weapon. Not a great choice, but I suppose it will make sense if you face a lot of infantry.

Dervish
They work in tag teams, taking out one unit a turn. It took all four to take out one unit of my Champions in one turn. That may not be a good return on points, but when 2 Champions can take apart a Dervish in single combat, it's a good return. These guys can kill one enemy and then move onto the next and attack. For such a low amount of pts, it's really good.

FOS
A very good AI beatstick. Can kill, move and then kill again like the dervish. I agree with it's inclusion in this list.

Choir
With this many Jacks it needs to take Choirs.

Vassal
See Choir.

Covenant
Great Toolbox.

This army was just pure filth. I've never had such a good game as this. I thought it would've been over after losing the first unit of Champions, but the next unit of Champs with Borka, Axer and the Mauler really beat face on the feat turn, but next turn, Amon popped his feat and all his guys stood up and really put the hurt in. I've learnt from this to take two full units of Champs.

Just as a warning - I seriously think we're looking at a new tourney standard list - it is that good.

Against trolls. I think a Cryx assassination arc node list would tear it apart. Same thing goes for fast beast heavy Legion.

Against anything fast, they're not enough on the field to stop a flanking maneuver.

Any way you can get your speed up? Or get a tar pit unit into the waiting blades of his jacks?

It could simply be a bad match up for trolls, but it's hardly a competitive tournament list. It's really one sided.

Menoth is kinda like trolls actually.

They are super hard to beat when their support is alive and allowed to do its thing and super easy to beat when their support is dead or countered.

This leads to people getting worked up when they don't go after the support properly and get rolled by a front line that they can't beat.

Learn how to kill the support and just like champions get a LOT easier to kill once their support units are down, so too will the Menite stuff run out of steam.

radiohazard, post what you have and we'll give you some pointers about demolishing this one sided list you're having trouble with. It might be an uphill battle with trolls, but it's likely doable.

I kinda agree with the op. I am not saying this list is unbeatable, but if you are not ready for it look out. It is really fast for a jack heavy army and on the feat turn those jacks just walk around your stuff and kill your caster. Plus with synergie running you really have to look out for Amon himself, if just 3 of his jacks hit first he is like mat 10 p+s 17. He can ruin any casters day all by himself.

I think I found the problem with this one.

This is the list I took:

PMadrak
- Mauler
- Axer

3 Champions
3 Champions
Full KSB + Scribe Elder

2 Fell Caller
1 Hero

I don't think I had enough Tarpit in my Tarpit units. Champions Tarpit better than most other units of their type. They can also hit harder than most with 2 Weapon Master attacks.

Also I think my choice of Warlock wasn't good. I should have taken Borka as his Mosh Pit spell would have helped a lot more. Even with Amon's feat cancelling the spells effect, he can only do that for one turn. So with more Champions and Borka, I think I can win.

This is the re-worked list and most likely list two in a steamroller tourney:

Borka
- Keg Carrier
- Mauler
- Axer

5 Champions
3 Champions
Minimum KSB

Fell Caller
Hero

Borka is a Light Beast in Warlock clothing. His DMG output is close to a Heavy, but he takes the hits like a light. His "Animus" (Mosh Pit - which is really a spell) is probably the only spell he will cast as the others are kinda rubbish.

Borka + Mauler = fun times with Trauma at P+S 19.
Borka's Mosh Pit + Axer's Thresher = Lots of KD stuff.
Borka's Mosh Pit + Axer's Thresher + Mauler's Rage = Lots of KD Dead Stuff. (P+S 18 Thresher with KD is pretty good).

The KD in general from Mosh Pit should help. When his Jacks hit the wall of Champions, whatever is left will counter attack and charge after Borka has cast it. When stuff is KD, the other stuff will jump up and down on them, leaving the problem of the FOS.

Going against any Jacks is a problem for Trolls, but a Jack army is just a nightmare.

I totally screwed up with Borka the other week. I thought Mosh Pit was still upkeep...

whitekong wrote: I kinda agree with the op. I am not saying this list is unbeatable, but if you are not ready for it look out. It is really fast for a jack heavy army and on the feat turn those jacks just walk around your stuff and kill your caster. Plus with synergie running you really have to look out for Amon himself, if just 3 of his jacks hit first he is like mat 10 p+s 17. He can ruin any casters day all by himself.

It could be that the local meta is still very infantry heavy, but "walk around your stuff"? My merc army usually has 1 or 2 full units of infantry-- steelheads and alexia. My legion force is just stuffed with medium bases (I like the blighted ogrun even if their rules are not 100% there yet). The local retribution players don't come to 35 points with less than 30 infantry. Another player plays eIrusk.

While the rules may be encouraging the heavier use of jacks, it'll take some time before people's collections reflect that.

Even against a balanced force of one third of your points into jacks, 1/3 into units and 1/3 into solos, that should be enough models to stop things just walking up to your caster.

frozenwastes wrote:

whitekong wrote: I kinda agree with the op. I am not saying this list is unbeatable, but if you are not ready for it look out. It is really fast for a jack heavy army and on the feat turn those jacks just walk around your stuff and kill your caster. Plus with synergie running you really have to look out for Amon himself, if just 3 of his jacks hit first he is like mat 10 p+s 17. He can ruin any casters day all by himself.

It could be that the local meta is still very infantry heavy, but "walk around your stuff"? My merc army usually has 1 or 2 full units of steelheads and sometimes alexia. My legion force is just stuffed with medium bases (I like the blighted ogrun even if their rules are not 100% there yet). The local retribution players don't come to 35 points with less than 30 infantry. Another player plays eIrusk.

While the rules may be encouraging the heavier use of jacks, it'll take some time before people's collections reflect that.

Even against a balanced force of one third of your points into jacks, 1/3 into units and 1/3 into solos, that should be enough models to stop things just walking up to your caster.

Well I am not saying you will get a turn 1 kill, but a couple of turns into the game hopefully I will have killed some of your infantry. If not then I guess I lose, still bring enough infantry and I just pull pfeora out of the case. Also the protectorate has some of the best anti infantry pieces in the game, I can usually make a hole if I need to.

"If you bring this, than I'll bring that, and if you bring this, I'll bring that" is nice and all, but the topic at hand is this Amon list as being somehow cheese or broken. Radiohazard made the statement that it will be competitive at a tournament. That means against all comers.

Against a typical tournament army designed for all comers, the Amon list in the first post will flounder. Balanced Cygnar forces will shoot it apart. Cryx will get arc nodes around it faster than the dervishes will get to the cryx caster. Retribution will jack hunter the dervishes to pieces while Narn and the Magehunter assassin solos close in on Amon.

It is very good against other low model count armies as well as against slow armies. Like the troll one that actually faced it. If you face it with a normal army (good balanced split between solos, units and jacks and reasonable synergies) and the person then changes their army then we're no longer on topic for this thread. And problem solved-- the amon list above isn't being fielded anymore.

frozenwastes wrote:The local retribution players don't come to 35 points with less than 30 infantry.

I play Ret and I find it really hard to fit more than 20 Infantry in a 35pt army.

I have a lot of friends who play Ret and after saying to them the above statement, they wouldn't take more than 20 infantry as it takes away pts needed for Jacks and solos.

From a collective opinion of what I call experienced Ret players, the list that appears to work best is one based around Flanking, with Invictors, Scyir with Hydra and Vyros with Phoenix taking centre stage. These are backed up by an Arcanist, 2 Ghost Snipers and pEiryss. I tested this list against the Amon list and it tore the Amon apart. It wasn't particularly fast and had a small model count:

Vyros.
- Phoenix.

Invictors (Max) + UA.

Scyir
- Hydra
Arcanist
pEiryss
2 Ghost Hunters

Back on topic, we found an inherant weakness in Trolls. They have a big problem against Jacks based forces, especially those by Khador, Ret and Menoth. Khador because of the large amount Hit Points and ARM, Ret - those pesky shields and Menoth, lots of cheap Jacks with a ton of Buff. The Brick in particular has a problem unless a way to KD the Jacks and pound on them is found - Enter Borka. Sure a Mauler can tear any Jack apart in one combat turn, but if many Jacks are set upon it, even a Mauler has a problem. Trolls have heavy hitters in their infantry, but not enough to take out large numbers of Jacks.

Now, you say that "against a typical Tournament Army designed for all comers, the Amon list will flounder." I have seen that list tear apart many Infantry based armies. The whole notion that the army will walk around yours is very possible. The side step move is incredibly overpowered. It's making infantry based WM players think twice of the way they deploy, move and protect their warcaster with their army. Players are now fielding two rows of infantry against this as it means that the Dervish with just hit one guy in the front row and "bound" into the second line.

BTW - Borka won me round two against Amon. The KD trick works really well, and even with his feat, it only bought him one turn before Borka and the Mauler smashed Amon to pulp. It was literally Ground and Pound

radiohazard wrote:

frozenwastes wrote:The local retribution players don't come to 35 points with less than 30 infantry.

I play Ret and I find it really hard to fit more than 20 Infantry in a 35pt army.

Sorry, you're right. I should have said models, not infantry. It takes a dedicated infantry list to get to 30 infantry. Houseguard are one way though. It takes using things like Houseguard to get to 30 models easily in a 35 pt game.

Now, you say that "against a typical Tournament Army designed for all comers, the Amon list will flounder." I have seen that list tear apart many Infantry based armies. The whole notion that the army will walk around yours is very possible. The side step move is incredibly overpowered. It's making infantry based WM players think twice of the way they deploy, move and protect their warcaster with their army. Players are now fielding two rows of infantry against this as it means that the Dervish with just hit one guy in the front row and "bound" into the second line.

This doesn't sound any different than what people have had to learn since the beginning of mk1. You had to keep your distance from a Kreoss pop and drop, or a sorscha freeze and wind rush or Deneghra's arc node assaults. Amon just has one that works by getting it done in melee.

I still don't understand how things are getting "around the infantry". I don't leave enough room to put a medium base next to my caster when I'm facing an army like that. It's true that my mercs have halbardiers and alexia, so that's lots of models with them potentially coming back. With my legion I take blighted ogrun and find that 10 multiwound medium bases to be quite an effective wall. The majority of my beast points are also in lessers and lights.

Perhaps it's just a local approach-- the people who win the local tournaments don't use all four feet of the table. Deploying in a line across your whole deployment zone and spending the game approaching while repositioning is just a waste of turns. I try to never have a front larger than 24 or so inches and try to use terrain or a board edge to protect one flank and some of my forces for the other.

I just don't see how 5 lights and a heavy can get around 35 points of a balanced army when the person concentrates on not letting things get through. Especially when the Amon list above doens't have nearly the AOE attacks that it Menoth armies can bring if they want to.

And good for people for learning to use ranks of infantry instead of spreading them out in a line. One of the best things about the switch to command radius for formation rules is that people can use things other than lines. I find elliptical formations to be very effective-- especially with models with reach.

BTW - Borka won me round two against Amon. The KD trick works really well, and even with his feat, it only bought him one turn before Borka and the Mauler smashed Amon to pulp. It was literally Ground and Pound

So you beat the army you complained about in your original post? So it was probably an overreaction then? It's very similar to how people overreact the first time they lose to a sacrificial strike or to Magnus' renegades or to Seige's feat and fox hole to remove LOS barriers. Or Deneghra making arc nodes ghostly and then blasting the crap out of people. Very rarely will someone lose to it so easily a second time unless they have problems learning in general. Often the rematches are seen as quite fair by both sides.

So are you ignoring the effectiveness of trample through a unit of infantry?
That could be just as useful as going around.
Especially with 5 lights vs small base infantry.
That could make quite the hole.

@Frozenwastes

it's no overreaction. Out of all the players at my flgs I'm the only one to defeat it. The Amon list is still destroying armies with ease. Even infantry heavy lists are struggling with the amount of trampling runs, side stepping and general beatdown this list can create.

The guy who plays this list has also started to mod it by removing FOS and using either a Castigator for it's combustion attack, Vanquisher for it's thresher attack and using the remaining point for three racks. This makes the mass infantry game more solid for Amon.

skrulnik wrote:So are you ignoring the effectiveness of trample through a unit of infantry?
That could be just as useful as going around.
Especially with 5 lights vs small base infantry.
That could make quite the hole.

Only heavy warjacks can trample.

skrulnik wrote:So are you ignoring the effectiveness of trample through a unit of infantry?
That could be just as useful as going around.
Especially with 5 lights vs small base infantry.
That could make quite the hole.

Lights can trample now can they?

Heavies can only trample if they can end their activation with enough space for their base. Since trampling actually got good with MK2, more players are spending a bit more time paying attention to preventing trampling with model placement. Or atleast they should be.

Find out how far a given heavy can possibly move on a trample. Measure your control radius. Place models accordingly. Yes, tramples will still happen, but you can severely reduce how often they do occur.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

radiohazard wrote:
The guy who plays this list has also started to mod it by removing FOS and using either a Castigator for it's combustion attack, Vanquisher for it's thresher attack and using the remaining point for three racks. This makes the mass infantry game more solid for Amon.

YES! Now we're getting competitive and scary. Vanquisher +Choir + Vassal = fiery death for infantry and casters alike. Castigators can do likewise. That simple jack swap makes a massive difference in how well infantry can be overcome by the army in question.

Another thing a lot of players don't do enough against small compact forces is to run more. I run my steelhead halbardiers so often that I forgot they got a bonus when they charge last game. Also, don't be afraid of lateral movement. I know a lot of people swear by hyper-aggression and maintain that games of Warmachine should end in turn 3. It doesn't have to. Feed the meat grinders the fringe of a well spread out tarpit and go for the flank and the turn 5 caster kill.

Here's a suggestion-- play against this army assuming the jacks are invincible. That all attacks against them automatically miss and all damage rolls do nothing. Think about how you can reduce their effectiveness because trying to go head to head with them is very difficult.

EDIT: Also, note what I'm doing here. I'm talking about figuring out how to beat this thing without taking an army that it specifically has trouble against. I'm assuming a standard tournament army with about an equal split of jacks, units and solos. If you'd like to me to suggest specific lists to crush this thing with various factions I can. I don't really have any experience with Trolls or Skorne though.

Ok, now this is starting to get scary:

Amon
- 3 Dervish
- Castigator
- Vanquisher

Full Choir
Full Choir
Full Choir
Covenant
Vassal

or

Amon
- 3 Dervish
- 2 Vanquisher

Full Choir
Full Choir
2 Vassals
Covenant
3 Wracks

I don't know how i'm supposed to beat this now even with Borka. Small Jacks my army can handle and one heavy is all fine, but that is two Heavies, both with great AI capability and cross unit synergy.

Much scarier than the original list.

Any ideas on how to beat it???

Not with Trolls. I just don't know them well enough.

frozenwastes wrote:Not with Trolls. I just don't know them well enough.

How about Ret???

Traditional ranged assassination. Kaylysa tiered list would be very, very effective against it. Feedback and mage hunters attacking ARM 16 lights will give Amon a lot of damage.

Rahn can present the double threat of powerful ranged attacks from his units and jacks and arced force hammer slamming jacks back trough the choir/vassal. The Choir's stats says "While affected by a hymn, a warjack cannot be affected by another hymn." So he has to choose between can't be shot and can't be attacked by spells. Threaten both. Get to max range and just back up and shoot, back up and shoot. Keep Rahn far back and make sure he stays immune to scattering Vanquisher shots with his abilities.

Spread out sentinels and put them in two lines and then offset the rear line. Try to make it so there's just slightly less than 40mm between any given path through there so any free strike immune jack can't slip by. He can't in any way pass over your bases. Their defensive line doesn't make their ARM high enough to survive charging dervishes, so don't bother keeping them in base to base.

Put together an assassination flank contingent. Narn and a magehunter assassin should do. Their target is amon himself or the support staff. Regular Eiryss is also very effective against this list, disrupting stuff and firing at important support targets. She's an ideal member of the hit squad. If you keep the rest of your army centre and run these guys 14" off to one side, he lacks the models to fight both forces. Amon's feat turn is less than impressive when he has no focus.

Or go full on jack heavy with Vyros. Cast mobility every turn. No units, just Vyros, jacks and solos. Stay just outside of charge range and shoot and scoot until he commits. Then lock down his jacks with your lights that do that. Go for a turn 5 or even 6 kill. Make the opponent as frustrated as his army has been making you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another general tactic: Split your force.* Keep enough with the warcaster to protect him for atleast a turn. He lacks the models to both attack you and keep a defensive line up for the force he doesn't attack. Perhaps one force is all the defensive and shooty stuff and the other is full of SPD7 assassination models.
* when splitting forces you want to keep them close enough that they both threaten at the same time. The WORST way to split your force is to not engage simultaneously and effectively let him kill two separate weaker armies one at a time. You want both sides engaging simultaneously.

Also, don't split your attacks. Try to get at just one jack and completely kill it. Position your stuff so enough to kill one jack is threatening him but his whole army can't threaten you. Then move on the next jack. If he starts complaining about the game going too long, tell him he can always concede.

Let me know the casters and models at your disposal and I'll be able to get a bit less scattered and vague.

I've been borrowing a Ret army from a friend, I'm buying my army this week.

So far NIB I have:

2 Heavy Myrmidons.
Invictors + UA.
pEiryss.

I have on order:

2 Ghost Snipers.
Arcanist.
Scyir.

I can get anything else within a fair budget, but I'm thinking:

Rahn.
Vyros.
Rayvn.

I'll build an army around one of them. Not sure which though.

With those models? Probably Vyros.

What an awesome army you've got coming.

Hydras will do excellently witht his army. Consider building your heavies with magnets or pins so you can change what Myrmidon they are.

Hydra's cannons are magic attacks so the choir can't stop them in any way, shape or form. Add in Vyros' line of sight and cover/concealment effecting rules and you have two very effective heavy sniper jacks that are also very, very focus efficient.

If he does safe passage, hit one dervish with two Hydra's. POW 15 + boost = 3d6-1. Just move to maximum range so he can't reach you even if he runs and shoot whichever dervish is on the corner of his line, closest to you. Hit the same Dervish with both cannons. If it rus up to you, simply walk away and shoot again next turn as he'll fall short and won't have you engaged.

The Invictors are the slow part of your army and they can't really escape the jacks coming at you.
Safe passage can really ruin their day, but when the jacks get close, they're going to be switching to Battle Hymn. I'd spread them out about an inch and a half from one another and not in a line. You want less than 40mm between them so each dervish can really only kill a few of them and not walk right past them to Vyros.

Another use for Invictors is to try to kill all his support in a single turn. Either he keeps his jacks really close to one another and can't stop the Hydras from picking him apart and getting to amon on the flank of his formation or he spreads them out a bit and then you can shoot between them. With the UA it's possible that you might be able to shift around a bit and shoot the crap out of his choir and vassals thanks to the extended range. It's really a tough call as to what you should do with the Invictors. I'd cert

pEiryss and the ghost snipers can really do some damage. Resist the temptation to aggressively advance them ahead of the rest of your army. Instead, sort of send them off the side, so that if his jack wall moves towards your caster, he'll have no jacks between the ghost snipers and Eiryss and some juicy targets. pEiryss can really ruin Amon's day. And when jacks stop being protected by the choir, putting down 9 damage on the collumn you want can disable a jack pretty quickly. Especially if you're not spreading your fire.

If anything, the Vanquisher is the greatest threat to them. If it happens to be on the corner of the jack wall, it's a prime target for the Hydras as well. It won't get shredded quite as easily as the Dervishes, but POW 15 is nothing to sneeze at.

First step is to make the army yours. I'll suggest a list, but that's largely pointless as it'll be from my perspective/play style:

Dawnlord Vyros -6
Hydra 9
Hydra 9
Dawnguard Invictors (Leader and 9 Grunts) 10
Dawnguard Invictor Officer & Standard 2
Eiryss, Mage Hunter of Ios 3
Ghost Sniper 2
Ghost Sniper 2
Mage Hunter Assassin 2
Mage Hunter Assassin 2

The plan is that the Invictors and Vyros play "we're the real core of the army" for the first two turns. I'd want the jack wall facing them and heading towards them. On a flank I'd run the 2 Hydras. Vyros would be slanted towards this side. I'd make the space between the Hydras and the Invictors/Vyros a tempting target for running through on Amon's feat turn.

On the other side of the invictors I'd run the assassination squad. 2 snipers, eiryss and the 2 mage hunter assassins. The object is to have the menoth player face/head towards the other two parts of the army. The ghost snipers and Eiryss can start killing support. I wouldn't do any crazy flanking runs until either I have a shot at Amon with Eiryss or the jack wall is committed enough against the rest of the army that turning everything around to deal with the hit squad would be suicide.

Another great place for the assassination squad is just haning out behind the Hydras. Once he's committed, they start flanking. All the while they help out the Hydras pick things off.

Basically the idea is to present him with two or three things he can go after, but make it so he can't really go after any one of them without turning his flank to another. If he goes down the middle toward Vyros and the Invictors, the hit squad an the Hydras with cross fire him. If he goes after the hit squad, the Hydras shoot him in the back (as much as Amon has a back). If he goes after the Hydras, Eiryss and friends tear him a new hole. He simply lacks the models to block off all three avenues of attack and his army requires hyper aggression. He needs those dervishes to be engaged.

Oh, and ignore the book. If it gets Vyros in it's no spell range, you're way, way too close. You're also not going to be trying for knock downs.

I really like the list you've suggested, with only one minute exception:

No Arcanists.

The way I plan to use them is:

T1 allocate no focus, Vyros casts Mobilty and Inviolable resolve on the Invictors, keeping two. Arcanists place a focus on each Hydra. The entire army runs up.

T2 allocate 2 focus to each Hydra, Vyros upkeeps Inviolable Resolve, keeping one. The army moves up and the Hydras open fire on one large target. The Snipers also fire upon the same target to inflict 9 DMG. Rinse and repeat.

Once a hole is open, blast the caster apart with the two Hydra and the Sniper Team, or Sniper him and charge the bugger down with the Hydras, Vyros and MHA.

Looks tactically sound and it also works with Rayvn.

Vyros or Rayvn.
- 2 Hydra

2 Ghost Sniper
pEiryss
2 Arcanist
Mage Hunter Assassin

10 Invictors + UA

I figured no Arcanists because the Hydras are focus batteries and once you give them focus, you'll likely not have much of an opportunity to do so again during the game. Also, if your jacks get engaged, they could likely be totally trashed by Amon's jacks in a single turn, so I'm not sure how often they'll be able to fix things.

It's totally possible that I'm underestimating the Arcanist's utility though. They may well be the best one point solo in the game. I think your army composition is awesome, even if they're not my style.

Also, why run up? Why not let the almost exclusively melee oriented army come to you? Instead move laterally. Forward and off to one side. Reposition things to the point where he has to reconsider his approach.

I don't remember the snipers having a magic weapon, so whatever they're shooting at, it won't be the Safe Passaged dervishes or vanquisher.

The best way to take apart the Amon list is to have things at your maximum range and the three parts of your army equidistant from his army. Like if Amon's most forward jacks are the centre of a wheel and the spokes go out to your three things. One to Vyros and the Infantry, one to the Jacks and One to the assassination squad. As he moves, try to rotate the wheel and close it in as he gets close so you end up basically hitting him from three sides at once. Until he commits you hover the best you can outside of his charge range and blast the crap out of his jacks with your magic ranged attacks, concentrating on one until it's dead before moving on to another.

I don't think you'd come out ahead in a frontal assault. That's the whole problem with this Amon list, right?

Amon is Pretty awesome, he definatly is a force which will Crush in your face like a clown with pie.

But im suprised no one has talked about karchev....
if you think amon is hardcore, You'll cry tears of blood against the karchev lists my friend plays :(

3/4lights 1/2 heavies from menoth? means nothing against unearthlyraged behemoth :(

but amon rocks socks

I'm a khador player and I must say the Karchev list is scary. Downside to it is Karchev. It's too easy to take his focus away using Eiryss or any disruption. His berserkers can't really deal with infantry either.
TBH I would fear nothing if I took my trolls. My champs can hit as hard as a zerker and I have more of them. And believe or not but zerkers need to boost to be able to kill a champ outright and that's with a good roll.
IMO as much as I hate saying this, Amon is better than Big K.

Behemoth kills eiryss
beast-09 kills infantry lol
Spriggan pushes Everything out the way and kills the caster

he hates berserkers, refuses to ever buy one.

amon may be better in the aspects of speed and probably getting a high synergy chain. but when your opponent never fails to deviate bombards upon your support/solos. id rather be playing someone tougher lol.

Bulldoze is tricky, though. If they line up their models just right, and you don't deal
with the extras, those pushes will end up messing up your charge. The models don't
slide sideways, they get pushed up to 2" directly away. If they contact a model with the same
or larger sized base, they stop.