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While building my Kan wall army I have realized that there are some weapons that negate my KFF that protects my kans.

Apart from template weapons such as burnas and Hellhounds, I have found the Colussus and deathstrike missiles that have above STR 5 that can get a glancing/penetrating hit on my AV 11 kans. Are there any others weapons in 40k that have this ability that is commonly used?
Any tactics suggestions that a kan wall setup can deal with this threat?

To be honest, I don't think the situation will come up all that often. Deathstrike is crap anyway. A colosus isn't fielded all that often, but if it is, Snikrot and his boyz would definitely help, as it can't move and fire. Hellhounds I can see being a problem, but spreading out your kanz and perhaps using a checkerboard formation might help
Example
X X
X
This should allow the hellhound to only hit 2 kans at once.
Otherwise, lootakill it before it gets close enough to fry your kanz

Lootas you say... I am a bit reluctant to add stationary units in my foot slugging army. A possible setup within 1750 would be like this... Sacrificing 2 kommandos and 2 boys in each squad.

HQ
2 KFF Meks

Troops
3 *28 Boys with Nob with PK
10 grots plus herder (shielding Lootas)

Fast
3 Deffkoptas TL rokkits

Elite
11 Kommandos incl Snikrot
10 Lootas

Heavy
3x3 Killa Kans with grotzookas

drop the grots and add more lootas, just deploy the lootas in cover and they dont need a gretchin screen, their range is long indeed.

edit: played around with your list in army builder and came up with this variant of it.


warboss /w pk squig eavy cybork
kff mek

15x lootas

5x nobz /w painboy, 3x eavy armor (painboy wears a tshirt lol),2x pk, kombi skorcha bosspole waagh banner in trukk with red paint and reinforced ram. (count as troops)
30x boyz /w nob with pk & bosspole
29x boyz /w nob with pk & bosspole
29x boyz /w nob with pk & bosspole

3x killa kanz /w grotzookas
3x killa kanz /w grotzookas
3x killa kanz /w grotzookas

so, bascially, you had the deffkoptas before for the fast threat, now you have a far superior nob squad in a trukk with the boss hitching a ride, if you hug terrain and get the first turn it becomes an insane threat, whereas deffkoptas can be good but noone fears them the way they do a fully diverse nob squad rolling into them.

You do loose the kommandos, but the nobz can do their job better i think, and if the enemy sends all his heavy weapons at the nob trukk, theyre not shooting your boyz or killa kans

Leman Russ Eradicator has a 36" range Str6 AP4 large blast that also ignores cover saves.

Tau markerlights would negate your cover save.

Ok, I missed the eradicator. STR6 means glancing on 5´s on my kans. The Tau´s is not in my gaming group (yet). My bane is still IG, its quite hard to find a setup with footslogging orks to be competetive against IG.

mon-keigh slayer: Regarding the changed setup, the problem in loosing 1 KFF is that I cant cover all 9 Kans with just 1 KFF. But I will indeed pose a bigger threat.

mon-keigh slayer wrote:drop the grots and add more lootas, just deploy the lootas in cover and they dont need a gretchin screen, their range is long indeed.

edit: played around with your list in army builder and came up with this variant of it.


warboss /w pk squig eavy cybork
kff mek

15x lootas

5x nobz /w painboy, 3x eavy armor (painboy wears a tshirt lol),2x pk, kombi skorcha bosspole waagh banner in trukk with red paint and reinforced ram. (count as troops)
30x boyz /w nob with pk & bosspole
29x boyz /w nob with pk & bosspole
29x boyz /w nob with pk & bosspole

3x killa kanz /w grotzookas
3x killa kanz /w grotzookas
3x killa kanz /w grotzookas

so, bascially, you had the deffkoptas before for the fast threat, now you have a far superior nob squad in a trukk with the boss hitching a ride, if you hug terrain and get the first turn it becomes an insane threat, whereas deffkoptas can be good but noone fears them the way they do a fully diverse nob squad rolling into them.

You do loose the kommandos, but the nobz can do their job better i think, and if the enemy sends all his heavy weapons at the nob trukk, theyre not shooting your boyz or killa kans

I'm not really a fan of the nobz in this situation... Isn't a trukk going to be quite easy to get rid off, at which point you are stuck walking. I think I would rather go for 2 split up Deff Koptas with TL rokkits and buzzsaws - that way you can scout-turbo, first turn assault and auto-hit rear armor with 6x ST7 hits (3 per kopta).

Since Marbo said you can't cover the whole force without 2 KFFs, I guess I'd add that back in, unless you felt like using gretchin as a screen for the parts that are out of reach I suppose.

I think I would want to get a second loota unit in there somehow, but I guess that means losing the kommandos anyway you slice it, which sort of sucks I suppose ~~

except you can cover 9 kans? you only need 1 of each squadron to have the save to give it to the other 2 ... its very easy to setup a 1 kff kanwall ....

and even if they do pop the trukk a nobsquad that deploys as far forward in trukk then moves 18" flat out will be clsoe enough to footslog it next turn if need be most times.

and each heavy weapon they shoot at your trukk is 1 less at kans, who even with kff can still be fairly easily shredded.

Mabye its just my flgs but we have a good bit of terrain, so theres always some way to go 18" and be hiding behind a building then next turn be in their face.

I found out in my battlewagon rush list that Eldar Fire Dragon Exarchs with the 'crack shot' power ignore cover saves, Tau can hit your kanz with piles of markerlights to reduce your cover save ( you still get one, but it's a 6+) Aside from that they only time you'll really see a big gun that ignores your cover saves will be in Apocalypse, so I wouldn't worry too much about it, bedsides, if someone shoots a griffon at your kanz he's insane, he should be shooting it at your boyz.

mon-keigh slayer wrote:except you can cover 9 kans? you only need 1 of each squadron to have the save to give it to the other 2 ... its very easy to setup a 1 kff kanwall ....

On what page in the BRB can I find that rule... I cant fint anything about cover saves for squadrons.... maybe I am blind....

a94marbo wrote:

mon-keigh slayer wrote:except you can cover 9 kans? you only need 1 of each squadron to have the save to give it to the other 2 ... its very easy to setup a 1 kff kanwall ....

On what page in the BRB can I find that rule... I cant fint anything about cover saves for squadrons.... maybe I am blind....

Anyone know?

BRB pg 64. Top left, second piece.

Ahh... cant belive that missed that.

I read correctly I can assign hits to the one in cover. But what happens when I get mulitple hits? I cant allocate all hits to just one. If the one I allocate to get destroyed no other kans have any protection from the KFF. I cant see how this that protects all of them....

They squadrons cover work like a normal units, so if 50% of the squadron is in cover then the squadron gets cover saves.

mon-keigh slayer wrote:except you can cover 9 kans? you only need 1 of each squadron to have the save to give it to the other 2 ... its very easy to setup a 1 kff kanwall ....

You can cover 9 kanz with one KFF but that really limits where you Kanz can move. It cripples your mobility to the point where it's almost not worth it.

You're good on turn 1 and if you only move straight forward with all your models it's fine. But if your opponent moves anywhere to the sides some of your kanz are losing coverage if they move anywhere towards the enemy.

I suppose if the purpose of the wall is to literally just stand there and not move it's fine. But if you desire any sort of movement flexibility at all with your list I'd recommend a 2nd KFF or less Kanz.

Plus, trying to "cover" 9 kanz with one KFF really stretches the fairness of the KFF rules. It's semi-broken already and this is coming from an Ork player. Two KFF with their borders touching so that they cover 24 x 12 is fine, since that takes a concerted effort to put out there, but having one 12 x 12 try to cover it all... too much. Fine for a cluster of vehicles, but too much for a kan line, IMO.

I did it all the time as an Ork player.

And brokenness or fairness are entirely subjective. It's perfectly legal.

sourclams wrote:I did it all the time as an Ork player.

And brokenness or fairness are entirely subjective. It's perfectly legal.

My local ork play says the same thing of me since i field Maugan Ra. His Assault cannon 36" ignoring cover ... worth it every time.

Space Marine Thunderfire Cannons have special rounds that ignore cover, but are only strength 5. Against Trukks, they might be dangerous, but Kans shouldn't really have to worry.

sourclams wrote:I did it all the time as an Ork player.

And brokenness or fairness are entirely subjective. It's perfectly legal.

Yeah it's a pretty simple distinction. If any one Kan base is within 6" of the KFF (or a vehicle housing him) the entire squadron containing that Kan is obscured. It's not debatable.

If it's in the codex I consider it fair.

I'm an ork player, so I'll take it, but it is a bit cheesy. However, every other damn codex has stuff that's just as bad or worse, so I really don't care.

LeperMessiah wrote:I'm an ork player, so I'll take it, but it is a bit cheesy. However, every other damn codex has stuff that's just as bad or worse, so I really don't care.

I generally have a conversation with my opponent about the competitiveness of their list prior to playing them. Most of my playgroup plays the most competitive lists they can think of. I see my share of Psyker Battle Squads, Manticores, THSS Terminators and Land Raiders, Leman Russ and Exorcists often.

So yeah of course I'm going to exploit KFF combos. Without it most of my ork lists are in trouble against other good lists.

When I go to a tournament I generally have this attitude. My assumption that tournament players are going to make the best possible list and play to win (not to not have fun mind you, but winning is the goal). I don't consider anything unfair or out of line in that context.

That said, sometimes my friend wants to play a "fun" more casual game (foot marines or something silly) and when he does? I drop the KFF and use stuff like Flash Gitz or Weirdboyz or other such frivolities .

The codex just states that vehicles within 6" should be considered as obscured. It does not specificly state that vehicles squadrons just need 1 vehicle inside the KFF.

a94marbo wrote:The codex just states that vehicles within 6" should be considered as obscured. It does not specificly state that vehicles squadrons just need 1 vehicle inside the KFF.

Either a squadron is obscured or it isn't. If the squadron is obscured it gets cover. The KFF obscures the entire squadron even if only one vehicle is within 6".

Kevin Nash wrote:

a94marbo wrote:The codex just states that vehicles within 6" should be considered as obscured. It does not specificly state that vehicles squadrons just need 1 vehicle inside the KFF.

Either a squadron is obscured or it isn't. If the squadron is obscured it gets cover. The KFF obscures the entire squadron even if only one vehicle is within 6".

How can you get to that conclusion? I have read bort the codex and rule bookback and forth, and cant find anything to support that. It sounds real good, but I cant find the text to support it. Please guide me, because if you are right I need to convince my friends that I play with aswell.

Fetterkey wrote:Space Marine Thunderfire Cannons have special rounds that ignore cover, but are only strength 5. Against Trukks, they might be dangerous, but Kans shouldn't really have to worry.

Thunderfire Cannons can also slow the Kans down. I think you should be more worried about the Thunderfire Cannons firing past your Kans and fragging your boyz without recourse to cover save.

a94marbo wrote:

Kevin Nash wrote:

a94marbo wrote:The codex just states that vehicles within 6" should be considered as obscured. It does not specificly state that vehicles squadrons just need 1 vehicle inside the KFF.

Either a squadron is obscured or it isn't. If the squadron is obscured it gets cover. The KFF obscures the entire squadron even if only one vehicle is within 6".

How can you get to that conclusion? I have read bort the codex and rule bookback and forth, and cant find anything to support that. It sounds real good, but I cant find the text to support it. Please guide me, because if you are right I need to convince my friends that I play with aswell.

I believe the codex says something like (paraphrasing): "all units with a model within 6" of the kff get a cover save."

I don't have a codex in front of me. I'll look up that language and post it when I see it again.

"... A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+. Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets...."

number9dream wrote:"... A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+. Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets...."

I can see now why there might be debate about this. However I would argue that "vehicle" and "vehicle squadron" are synonymous in game terms.

Therefore if any part of the vehicle squadron is in range, then the entire squadron gets the save.

For what it's worth I've witnessed people play through GT's using this tactic and nobody batted an eyelash. I've never read anywhere that the save didn't apply to the whole unit when actually using it this way in a tournament.