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Made in us
Shrieking Guardian Jetbiker




Los Angeles, CA

I have noticed (and really this common knowledge,) that when I field the half a unit of fire dragons, and they jump out and smoke Pask's Punisher, or a hammerhead, or a landraider, they pretty much get all the enemy fire dumped on them until they are dead, or the enemy runs out of shots. So it pretty much goes without saying that around 80% of the time, the dragons don't get a second turn.

Well, have any of you had luck with 10 dragons? I can't help but imagine that the 80 extra points to fill out the squad would survive to bag another tank/monster or smoke a few more terminators. Not only that, but then thats TWO rounds of shooting the enemy is wasting on fire dragons instead of the rest of my stuff.

Anyone out there had any luck with this, or is this one of those things that looks good on paper and crumbles in reality?

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Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms






Chino Hills, CA

Hmmm...

I'm nowhere near an expert at 40k, but I would think that even with 10 Dragons, the enemy would just keep pouring fire, maybe giving out a good 1-3 left in the unit.

Seems like too many points for a unit that MIGHT survive, IMHO.

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Longtime Dakkanaut



New Zealand

I've run larger units of Dragons before but they still have the exact same major issues that all Eldar infantry have, they die as soon as someone actually decides to shoot at them. The idea is that your 80-100 point unit of Fire Dragons kills 200ish points of big nasty enemy tank and then expects to die painfully the next round. If you run 10 then you HAVE to survive 2 turns to be able to make them worthwhile, and 10 4+ T3 models up close to the enemy are very unlikely to survive. When you factor in that during their turn the enemy can always move all the juicy targets out of the Dragons range, could tie them up in combat with something and there is the additional issue of fitting 10 models safely out the back of a Serpent (you end up very bunched up).

Basically if you feel you need more Fire Dragons then take 2 units of 5-6 in Serpents rather than 1 big unit. Maybe consider going to 7 if 1 of them is an Exarch with HF. It means you can kill 2 important things at once, have more units which the enemy has to target (increasing the chance that they might live) and gives you more flexibility so losing your 1 squad of Dragons doesn't cost you the game. You can always just organise it so they are close enough to each other so they can both go after a Terminator unit etc if thats what needs to die.

I have never run them but 5 Wraithguard (+ Spiritseer with Spear) in a Serpent are probably the next best thing for Eldar AT in close. Wraithcannons are pretty nasty against everything and with T6 3+ are going to last a lot longer than the Fire Dragons. It does of course cost quite a bit more (both money and points wise).
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




Hillsboro, Oregon

i buddy of mine plays 10 FD in a wave serpent.
they deploy and do considerable damage to what ever unit they shoot at. My friend trys to place his waveserpent to block as much LOS as possible.
These 10 FD will outright kill any GreaterDeamon, HiveTyrant, or Tank. Then they take some shots jump back into there WaveSerpent and repeat. Even if WaveSerpent is distroyed right away those dragons fleet from cover to cover to hit my lines. Not a bad unit at 10 models.

 
   
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Martial Arts Fiday






Nashville, TN

I run 8 with a HFlamer Ex and try and drop them off in an area with limited fire lanes. They usually last for a few turns longer.

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Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight






I think that if you have the extra elite slot and the points for a second serpent, you'd be better served by using two units of 5 dragons.

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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

augustus5 wrote:I think that if you have the extra elite slot and the points for a second serpent, you'd be better served by using two units of 5 dragons.


This.

And even moreso with Fuegan. Two serpents. One with Fuegan and 5 dragons. One with 5 dragons. Both with Star Engines. Turbo-Boost turn one. Star Engines to get just far enough into their backfield to wreak havoc upon anything. Beginning of turn 2, drop out the units and detach Fuegan. Now you have three dead tanks. And, if they get shot up, that means they're not firing at Fuegan or the rest of your army.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/01/12 05:10:41


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Angered Reaver Arena Champion






I'm not sold on Fuegan - I doubt that investment would be worth it.

Min sized Fire Dragon squads always seem to do just as well as max sized. So I like the idea of min sized squads in the serpent, and double up on them if you have the points.

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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

Dracos wrote:I'm not sold on Fuegan - I doubt that investment would be worth it.

Min sized Fire Dragon squads always seem to do just as well as max sized. So I like the idea of min sized squads in the serpent, and double up on them if you have the points.


Yeah, I don't actually use that setup, just proving a point that you don't need 10-man squads to wreak havoc. I prefer Eldrad and a unit of Avengers with Asurmen, to be honest. Or the Avatar.

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Tunneling Trygon





The only real reason to use any more than the min sized FD squads is for killing stuff other than tanks. Generally speaking 5-6 Meltas will kill any tank, so adding more is only really a benefit against MCs, high value infantry (Plague Marines, Terminators).

You don't want to take more to make them more survivable. If you find yourself needing more FDs after the first squad, then take another squad.



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Devastating Dark Reaper






I like 2x 8 man squads. I've been underwhelmed with 5 or 6 man squads, even against tanks. I also face enough armies in our local meta game where I need the ap2 against things other than tanks (plague marines, necron destroyers, terminators, nid MC's etc).
   
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Brainy Zoanthrope




Sweden

With only min-sized squads you run the risk of failing horribly, should the dice gods decide to screw with you. By adding some more bodies you ensure their preformance and add flexibility to the unit, as they can take on MEQ & TEQ squads as well.

I usually prefer my Fire Dragon squads at 7 or 8 man.

Another trick to keeping the dragons alive is to use other units in serpents in support of them and to pose another threat to your opponents army. That could be Banshees, Foot-councils, other Dragons etc.

It´s sometimes hard to achieve, but with some training you can get a pretty good feeling about when it´s time to move.

 
   
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers






Well I kind of moved near Toronto, actually.

If the tank blows up it blocks line of sight, so does their Wave Serpent. Blow up the tank.

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Swift Swooping Hawk




Five man dragon squads really arent worthwhile, even if you are just making a throw away tank killer at least go six to improve the odds that they actually DO something.

Two mid sized squads will probably do better against most armies than one large squad of course, but then if you are taking two squads the question comes down to why not do both? Take one smallish squad to pop the LR and one larger squad to fry the termies that fall out. If you are already investing in two suqads of six dragons each, each inside a serpent, then why not go ahead and make one of the squads a bit larger?

Larger squads are very good against MC and heavy infantry while small squads tend to fail against these targets.



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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





I haven't had much luck with 5 man dragon squads taking out tanks. It isn't enough to guarantee I actually take out the tank. Going to a 10 man squad does that.

In either event the entire squad will disappear from shooting no matter how many cover saves I get from the serpent or wrecked tank I destroyed. However, I find that's true of any infantry I run.
   
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Essen, Ruhr

ramongoroth wrote:I like 2x 8 man squads. I've been underwhelmed with 5 or 6 man squads, even against tanks. I also face enough armies in our local meta game where I need the ap2 against things other than tanks (plague marines, necron destroyers, terminators, nid MC's etc).


Uhm...AP 2?!? Am *I* crazy?


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Devastating Dark Reaper






Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
ramongoroth wrote:I like 2x 8 man squads. I've been underwhelmed with 5 or 6 man squads, even against tanks. I also face enough armies in our local meta game where I need the ap2 against things other than tanks (plague marines, necron destroyers, terminators, nid MC's etc).


Uhm...AP 2?!? Am *I* crazy?



No you're not. I was thinking AP2 or less to negate 2+ armor, FNP and WBB. In that case AP1 and AP2 are the same. That's what I get for "multitasking" at work.
   
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Sneaky Sniper Drone






ramongoroth wrote:No you're not. I was thinking AP2 or less to negate 2+ armor, FNP and WBB. In that case AP1 and AP2 are the same. That's what I get for "multitasking" at work.


AP2 or 1 doesn't deny WBB. Otherwise the same things that ignore FNP will ignore it.

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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets






Connecticut

Filling out 10 dragons gives you a few more options.
* You can use the FG squad to kill 6-7 MEQ.
* You can significantly increase the chance of destruction of a AV14 target.
* You can reliably take down MC

In a nutshell, it provides extra insurance against bad rolling. Sure, 5 dragons will kill 3 oblits on average, but if you roll badly that last oblit will wipe your squad.
Is that worth the extra cost? That is up to you.
   
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Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




Alabama

O'shovah wrote:
ramongoroth wrote:No you're not. I was thinking AP2 or less to negate 2+ armor, FNP and WBB. In that case AP1 and AP2 are the same. That's what I get for "multitasking" at work.


AP2 or 1 doesn't deny WBB. Otherwise the same things that ignore FNP will ignore it.


True. But the Strength 8 part does.

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Tacobake wrote:If the tank blows up it blocks line of sight, so does their Wave Serpent. Blow up the tank.


AP 1 weapons are more likely to get a Vehicle Explodes result (5 or 6) than a Vehicle Wrecked result (only on a 4).

If you wreck a vehicle, then yes, it still blocks LoS.

If you explode a vehicle, you remove it from the table, and replace it with a crater, if you have one. Generally craters will not block LoS to an infantry-sized model.

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Moustache-twirling Princeps





About to eat your Avatar...

My favorite way to run Fire dragons, is in a squad of 6, with an EML Wave Serpent.

Using two squads really begins to eat up a lot of points, accounting for the WS's, around 450 points.

That is not so bad for a 2k point army, especially when you are playing against SM.

If you want to make the squads more flexible (and this is advisable), stick a Heavy flamer Exarch in each squad. It works out to only 25 points more, or so, and it really makes a huge difference when playing against swarm armies (Orks, Nids, etc...).

Using squads of 10 is just silly.
There is no practical reason for investing so heavily in such short range weapons. They are not going to do much besides shoot once in the entire game, and even then, you need to invest points into other units to make full use of the Fire dragons role.



 
   
 
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