New Tyranid Close Combat Weapons Debate

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**Akaiyou**

Ok i've been having this debate with a member of Warpshadow who's playing devil's advocate representing a new wave of people who probably do not play Nids that want to claim that our weapons do not stack and that we must choose one or other when we attack. For example Bonesword & Lash Whip cannot be used in union according to them.

So since i'm assuming some of us have heard of this here as well or will encounter this issue in the future I want to present to you all my side of the argument and what I believe you should all point out to any opponent or tournament organizer trying to impede you from using your Bonesword + Lash Whip/Scything Talon or whatever.

My 1st point referenced the Space Marine Codex

Here is a little something else for you to chew on my friend since you INSIST on making this argument i will be obliged to counter with the following:

SPACE MARINE CODEX: PG 98

Digital Weapons:

"A model armed with digital weapons can re-roll a single failed roll to wound in each assault phase"

TYRANID CODEX: PG 83

"A tyranid model with a single-set of scythign talons re-rolls any to Hit rolls of a 1 in close combat"

THESE ENTRIES ARE BOTH UNDER THE WEAPONS ENTRY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE CODEX

Now do you realize how stupid your argument is? Are you going to tell the space marine players in your area that if they buy digital weapons that they cannot use their chainfist ???

Because I assure you both are under the 'weapons' entry in the same manner that the Tyranids have their scything talons next to their rending claws/boneswords etc.

I'm looking at both infront of me right now as I type this. There is no difference.

Master-crafted weapon is also under the same heading! Oh wait so now you can't have a master crafted thunder hammer! Becasue the effects do not stack according to some players out there! If it is under the same weapons entry you can't use them together!

This is ridiculous.

Oh and before you go and tell me 'oh wait but look at the army entry blah blah blah'

I just looked at the army entries for both a Chapter Master and a Broodlord.

Chapter Master says 'take digital weapons for XX points"

Broodlord says "take scything talons for XX points"

BAM! I hope i proved my point here. =grumble=

Sadly i could not use the Imperial Guard codex to make this counter argument because they simply do not have as many choices when it comes to CC weapons as do the space marines and nids. But given that the space marines are a relatively new codex I believe that should make the statement clear unless every space marine player out there has been awfully mistaken in how their weapons are supposed to work.

By the reasoning you present, both digital weapons and master crafted weapons are complete separate entries that do not stack with the current weapon used. And we all know this is not true.

But if you do not believe me open up your space marine codex and look for yourself and compare it to the Tyranid codex and then look at the army list selection entries and see yourself.

My 2nd point referenced the actual wording by RAW and noted that you get the effects by simply being equipped with it not by using it.

Well as i was making it a point in my last post since you did say that you are playing devil's advocate and displaying the 'other' parties point of views, i repeatedly suggested that when 'other' parties tell you otherwise you point them to their own codex and show them how their entries are worded near identically to ours and how they combine effects and yet somehow they want to say that we cannot now.

I am also very anal about following RAW but that doesn't stop me from saying 'oh wait a minute this isn't quite right, i should go with what makes most sense' which usually makes me bring out my inner lawyer and look up a precedent to my query.

Many people do that, they look at another codex FAQ or some other source in other to 'make the call' and that's perfectly acceptable.

So if it is acceptable for such things a digital weapons to stack onto the current weapons you are using, then by all means my scything talons should stack with my bonesword/rending claws.

And lash whip should definetly stack with bonesword. And here is why my friend.

You made your point with the master crafted thunder hammer however read the entry for lash whip. Lash Whips add NO EFFECTS to your attacks. It is a negative effect on the opponent by just having a lash whip.

You do not 'hit' the opponent with the lash whip. The entry does not say 'models hit by a lash whip have their initiave value reduced to 1'

I will quote the codex so you can see my point here:

"Any enemy model that is in base contact with a Tyranid with one or more lash whips counts their initiative value as 1 until the end of the assault phase, regardless of their actual initiative value"

Read that carefully. And i'd love to have others chime in on this.

From what I read, this clearly says that all i need to do is have a lash whip on my model for it to be on effect. There is no attack description or anything of the sort as in the case of every other weapon, minus the scything talons which also just describe an effect for simply being equipped with a pair.

Rending Claws starts with "Close combat attacks made by models with rending claws"

Bonesword starts with "No armour saves may be taken against wounds inflicted in close combat by a Tyranid with a bonesword"

Thus lets argue that perhaps BOTH points of view are correct in this matter.

Then i would say that the REASONABLE explanation that would make PERFECT sense is that

Bonesword, Crushing Claws & Rending Claws do NOT stack with each other.

But Scything Talons, Lash Whips, Claws and Teeth all stack no matter what you have equipped. Simply because you get their bonus by simply having them and not by using them.

Does this make sense to you as well? I hope i explained it properly.

**MasterSlowPoke**

None of the Nid weapons (aside from Claws and Teeth) are classified as CCWs, even though they are under the the Close Combat Weapons header. The rules for multiple weapons do not apply to them.

**Saldiven**

MSP has it right there. The rules in the main book prohibit the combination of effects from multiple Special Close Combat Weapons. Scything Talons, Rending Claws, etc., in the Tyranid codex don't even call themselves Close Combat Weapons, much less Special CCW's.

**mon-keigh slayer**

if theyre under the close combat section theyre ccws ...

**kirsanth**

Close combat weapons can be used together. The restriction is on "special" ones.
Even so, they do, generally, need to be used. The Tyranid CCW (mostly) function if a model has them, not if they are actually used.

iirc

**Saldiven**

mon-keigh slayer wrote:if theyre under the close combat section theyre ccws ...

Read the OP's entire post. He points out that things such as Master Crafting and Digital Weapons appear in the close combat section of the SM codex, and neither one of them are CCW's. They both just give a benefit to existing CCW's.

**warpcrafter**

The best point the OP made was comparing them to the master-crafted weapon upgrade. It's an upgrade. No mention is made of a prerequisite need to hit or wound for the effect to happen, they just have to be on the model. This had better not get to be like the deff roller issue.

**Maxus**

I'm trying not to get into this argument until I actually have a copy of the codex on Saturday January 16th, when the english version is released, but...

Assumption: Bonesword and Lashwhip are separate close combat weapons, they are classified as such per pg 42 BRB under Special CCW ("The most widely used are listed below", implying that there are more special weapons, and any special weapon that has an effect, such as the Bonesword and Lashwhip are classified as such)

So you choose which weapon you are using, to confer which bonus. In this case, either power weapon or change I of B2B enemy models to 1

Per pg 42 BRB when you have two special weapons "When its is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn,..."

So here is the situation, model with lashwhip has I4, 3 enemy models in B2B have I6, I4, I3. So the I6 goes first, at I4, you choose to use your lashwhip and change the I4 and I3 enemy models to I1.

This situation is absurd, it would make the lashwhip more useless than poisoned weapons on a carnifex since it would only create an affect if the wielding creatures I is equal to enemy models in B2B.

Where does the idea come from? The 4e Tyranid codex clearly states on pg 31 that you can use all of your cc biomorphs and you are not limited to using one at a time. People who have the codex are stating there is no such exception made in the 5th ed codex.

Its crazy, its silly, when I actually do have a codex I will be looking for this and how things are written.

**MasterSlowPoke**

Maxus wrote:Assumption: Bonesword and Lashwhip are separate close combat weapons, they are classified as such per pg 42 BRB under Special CCW ("The most widely used are listed below", implying that there are more special weapons, and any special weapon that has an effect, such as the Bonesword and Lashwhip are classified as such)

They are not defined as Close Combat Weapons, merely a piece of wargear that has an effect in Close Combat. GW did a really good job keeping this from being ambiguous.

**Mattbranb**

Master is right - otherwise they wouldn't have given them 2 pairs of seperate weapons. They balanced it out with not giving them 2 CCW bonuses (otherwise scything talons would really have been broken). So - you charge in an Alpha Warrior with Bonesword & Lash Whip & Scything talons - all enemies attacking him are Init 1, you have a power weapon that makes them take instant death tests on 2D6 and you get to reroll all 1s to hit. 4 attacks base, plus 1 for charging.

**blaktoof**

what master said is correct.

none of the new tyranid biomorphs are CCWs, they jsut give additional bonuses or rules to how the model attacks, without modifying the models number of attacks.

since they are not close combat weapons you can combine 2 effects from biomorphs.

**Saldiven**

My wyches are crying...

...no more reducing Tyranid attacks for having extra close combat weapons :(

**Akaiyou**

got my pre-orders

First thing im building up is the venomthropes and play testing them in Nidzilla, i'm almost positive that this is the new way to make Nidzilla competitive again