Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Easy question:
If at the end of the assault the majority of enemy models are in BTB with a model with a Lash Whip, does that model use it's own I value for sweeping advance or does it have to go at I1. I could see some devastating combos if they are I1.

Read the rules for sweeping advance again - note the use of the word "unmodified" before "initiative"

Thanks, didn't have BRB on hand and didnt feel like grabbing it lol.

Some of the Nid units still have a naturally high initiative so they will still do wonders when it comes to Sweeping Advance.

G

What IS horrible is Acid Maw and Lash whips, especially in conjunction with the WS1/Bs1 psychic power.

Any wound, which you are on 3s with a reroll to hit and probably 2s to wound, causes them to test for another wound on Initiative...1, with NO saves allowed.

Horrible against TH/SS ICs...

er, im pretty sure that its when THEY wound the model with the acid crap they take the init test or take wounds, not when the tyranid deals them ... read the enw dex a few times hmm, ill have to go to the flgs tomorrow and look again

The rules for lash whip don't "modify" the enemy intiative as defined in the rulebook. It states that the opponent "counts as having Initiative 1 until the end of the assault" which will end after you Sweeping Advance. The lash whips are holding you in place.


This is all a moot point, as only Synapse creatures can get lash whips, and all Synapse creatures are Fearless.

Fearless does not prevent you from performing a Sweeping advance.

And yes, the Lash whip changes the initiative to 1. If the initiative is anything but 1 originally you have modified the initiative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Therefore, lash whip does not affect Initiative for Sweeping Advance.

Dracos is correct. Sweeping Advance uses UNMODIFIED initiative. Whatever is on the models profile is the number you use. If a squad has everyone armed with power fists (for example, Wolf Guard Power Armour unit), they strike at I1, but SA as whatever their Initiative is.

"An enemy model that is in base contact with a Tyranid with one or more lash whips counts their Initiative value as 1 until the end of the Assault phase, regardless of their actual Initiative value."


It's pretty clear that it's not a modifier. (And I'm sorry, I thought you guys meant you were attempting to SA the Tyranids, not the Tyranids SAing somebody else)


As it turns out, Tyranids are extremely good at killing opponents who they've tied down. Go figure. Lash whips are amazing.

Sorry, but changing what the Initiative is, by the very definition, is modifying it.

Why is it that you believe it is not modifying the initiative by changing it to 1?

It's not a modifier as described in the rulebook. "Until the end of the Assault phase, regardless of their actual Initiative value" is rather explicit in describing the effect without going so far as to bring up Sweeping Advance as an example. If lash whips stated that enemies "suffer a -3 modifier to their Initiative value" or "strike at Initiative 1" or somesuch, I'd see eye to eye with you.

Dracos wrote:Sorry, but changing what the Initiative is, by the very definition, is modifying it.

Why is it that you believe it is not modifying the initiative by changing it to 1?

A modification in real world maybe, but in game terms a stat modifier is a very specific thing, Page. 6 BRB:

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model's characteristics ... by adding to it ... or even multiplying it..."

I'm pretty sure it's only considered a modifier if it's based on the original value, rather than setting it to something entirely different regardless of original initiative.

I think the RAW is certainly shakey here, but I definitely lean towards RAW supporting the I1 not being a modifier, that said, I don't think that's the RAI, and would certainly mention it if playing against a Tyranid player not interested in playing total strict RAW.

You will note that modifiers are never defined, except how to handle more complex calculations involving addition/subtraction and multiplication/division.

Since modifiers is not defined, you must use the conventional definition.

Changing the initiative, regardless of the phrasing used to accomplish this, is modifying it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ drunkspleen: The verbiage there does not define what a modifier is, but rather simply informs you that characteristics may be modified.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Dracos wrote:Sorry, but changing what the Initiative is, by the very definition, is modifying it.

Why is it that you believe it is not modifying the initiative by changing it to 1?

A modification in real world maybe, but in game terms a stat modifier is a very specific thing, Page. 6 BRB:

"Certain pieces of wargear or special rules may modify a model's characteristics ... by adding to it ... or even multiplying it..."

I'm pretty sure it's only considered a modifier if it's based on the original value, rather than setting it to something entirely different regardless of original initiative.

I think the RAW is certainly shakey here, but I definitely lean towards RAW supporting the I1 not being a modifier

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner

Oops, I totally made a brainfart by only looking into what I consider a modifier to be, while I still don't think this would be considered an "initiative modifier" I think the wording of the Sweeping Advance rules are more strict than that of the Lash Whip.

The Sweeping Advance rules, in full, say "Always count the initiative value from the model's profile without any modifiers." so, while I don't think the lash whip is a modifier, it most certainly does not change what is printed in the models profile, I think the specific wording of "from the model's profile" prevents you from using any value other than what is printed in that units rules.

Even so, your profile's Initiative counts as 1. Lash whips changes the PROFILE to 1 "regardless of the actual Initiative value." You haven't addressed that no matter what, even if your Initiative is 200, you count that 200 as a 1 when used for ingame calculations.

In fact, the "counts their Initiative value as 1" pretty much covers everything. When Sweeping Advance occurs, you roll a die, add your Initiative (unmodified) and then that Initiative value is 1 regardless of the number. It's the last step in the equation.

I have to say that if you play at a FLGS then the simple remedy is to ask an unbiased person in the store for their opinion (such as the Store Owner), and go with that from then on. There's nothing against you simply using house rules in the case of a disagreement. Simply present the two arguments, and let someone else decide.

At least, that's what happens at my FLGS when people have disagreements; they call out the store owner's name and ask him what he thinks.

If you're interested in Tournament level play regarding this rule, then wait til the codex is officially released, send GW this question, or simply ask a supervising judge what he rules (if you're already in the tournament).

That post is not helpful Sdasher. We are aware of how to resolve disputes during a game.

We are trying to find out what the rules say, telling us to ask onlookers during the game defeats the purpose of trying to figure out how the game works ahead of time to avoid in-game disputes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Broken loose: The rule does not say in any way that the profile's I value changes. The profile is a physical document, and it does not change because a rule tells you to use a different I value for that round of combat.

Broken Loose wrote:Even so, your profile's Initiative counts as 1. Lash whips changes the PROFILE to 1 "regardless of the actual Initiative value." You haven't addressed that no matter what, even if your Initiative is 200, you count that 200 as a 1 when used for ingame calculations.

In fact, the "counts their Initiative value as 1" pretty much covers everything. When Sweeping Advance occurs, you roll a die, add your Initiative (unmodified) and then that Initiative value is 1 regardless of the number. It's the last step in the equation.

The model's Initiative counts as 1, but the model's actual profile never changes, and Sweeping Advance directs you to that profile and tells you to use whatever is printed in that. I can see how it's not clear cut, and unfortunately there's nowhere else in the rules which specifically call out the model's profile that we can look at to try and get a precedent, but I feel that the wording for Sweeping advance is simply too strong for anything other than the printed Initiative value to be used (without a rule specifically saying it effects Sweeping Advance).

Just remember though that Initiative checks do NOT require this, so a model affected by Lash Whips makes Initiative checks at I1.

Dracos wrote:That post is not helpful Sdasher. We are aware of how to resolve disputes during a game.

We are trying to find out what the rules say, telling us to ask onlookers during the game defeats the purpose of trying to figure out how the game works ahead of time to avoid in-game disputes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@ Broken loose: The rule does not say in any way that the profile's I value changes. The profile is a physical document, and it does not change because a rule tells you to use a different I value for that round of combat.

Ah, I'm very sorry; I kind of forgot where I was in the forum before I asked.

On topic, and hopefully helpful, I would say that the lash whip does reduce an enemy's I to 1, and that value is used for the Sweeping Advance roll-off, because, why would you be tangled up in a lash whip, swing your chainsword at I1, but be able to escape, semi-tangled, at I4? (as an example). To me it doesn't make sense for the other player to be of benefit, but I may be biased because I play Tyranids and await the new codex eagerly.

Hope that was a little better.

SDasher wrote:Ah, I'm very sorry; I kind of forgot where I was in the forum before I asked.

On topic, and hopefully helpful, I would say that the lash whip does reduce an enemy's I to 1, and that value is used for the Sweeping Advance roll-off, because, why would you be tangled up in a lash whip, swing your chainsword at I1, but be able to escape, semi-tangled, at I4? (as an example). To me it doesn't make sense for the other player to be of benefit, but I may be biased because I play Tyranids and await the new codex eagerly.

Hope that was a little better.

No, not really, since this is the complete opposite of what the rules say.

We are discussing Rules here, not "Omg but he is all tangled up so it must work" fluff.

Gwar! wrote:Just remember though that Initiative checks do NOT require this, so a model affected by Lash Whips makes Initiative checks at I1.

Absolutely correct, an Initiative check, even if it stipulated unmodified Initiative IMO, would be taken on Initiative 1, it's only Sweeping Advance which escapes this by calling specifically for the Initiative value listed on the unit's profile.