Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I play once a week with a 2000 pt army about 12-14 players with a random draw for partners. I suffer from FDDTSS or Fire-Dragon-Die-Too-Soon syndrome. Best case I get to disembark my 6 fire dragons from my wave serpent and kill a tank/transport(LR) if I am lucky and I do not get wiped out by the blast, then I get destroyed by whatever squad jumped out with a serious hate for my T3 4+ save orange targets. I know I should stop complaining (at least got my points back) but I want a better chance for a rinse and repeat. I dread running at flat out away with an empty WS looking for a squad like an eldar taxi desperate for a fare. I was thinking replacing 6 FD with 4 Wraithguard (Maybe 5) + Warlock( Spear + Enhance) + Yriel. Mounted all in a WS for about 438pts. Worth the points? Maybe not, but whatever is shooting or hitting them needs to beat a T6 to wound and with Enhance they get some oomph if I get assualted to take out the unit with the powerfist. Not planning on assaulting and stage diving into a horde.

Fearless (its a good thing I am told when not in CC)
All of them have a similar ranged profile 12" range 2+ wound. No armour save,instant death, etc. Good anti tank with two S9 spears and 3+ glance 5+ penetrate on wraithcannon regardless of armour
Similar in defense with 3+ armour saves, did I mention T6
Melee is weak. Not many attacks or wounds but with a WS of 5+ and I of 5+ . S 5 on WG not so bad I will get some licks in and if it goes bad and Yriel is left standing alone in next round he can pop his top for a S6 AP3 blast.

With a farseer casting doom and guide to help out it looks fun. Kind of like a little elfzilla on wheels.

The rest of the army is generic

3 WW with SC with SS and Pathfinders if I get first turn to scout or outflank if I get 2nd (+ 1 Reserves roll)
3 X8 DA
10 Harlequins 4 kisses 1 shawdoseer
6 SH + exarch
2 Fire Prism

What do you think? Drop the dragons?

Here are a few Eldar AT units.

Storm Guardians ( i suppose your enemy will laugh at them and leaving them alone till he realize they have melta guns)

Farseer council with Singing Spears. Your enemy know what they are for and will focus fire on them , luckily these can be tough to kill. ( bonus of drawing fire away from your army i guess? )

You could use a mounted DA squad to go FoF-like with bladestorming and perhaps guide/doom. Taking the wave serpent and seer into account this might be slightly more expensive than the squad you proposed but imo it pays off since there is little that will withstand 32 S4 shots with reroll to hit and wound (MEQs suffer 7 casualties statistically). Bladestorm suits mounted DAs because they won't want to shoot next turn, when they reembark and with 2 serpents you could use a V shape tactic to denie survivors a charge. That's the way I use my DAs and FDs and I played it to some success though not in real tournaments. (some guys at my FLGS may be described as competitive though )

Frankly, until Eldar get a new codex, fire dragons are going to be expendable. But if you happen to kill anything other than a chimera or a rhino you are going to make your points back and most likely double or triple that. When the new 'nids come to town guess whats the best unit to kill MC lurking in the backfield or the trygon that popped up in the middle of your army. Fire dragons have a fear factor and with a wave serpent, a largish threat range.

About the only way to save them after their one shot is to present a better target to take some of the heat off. I would also arm their transport w/ a brightlance allowing you to attempt to kill the tank and then use the fire dragons to roast the crunchy bits inside. If that happens you might as well assault to try to cause some more damage.

There really is no ideal replacement for Fire Dragons. I personally feel that they are clearly amongst the best close-range AT units in the game. Their purpose overall, is to just shoot the scariest thing they can find, and just wait to possibly, maybe, not die again. Unlikely, but at such an effective point cost, you simply can't ask for much more.

Wraith guard are simply not worth the investment if you don't plan on using them as troops. Occasionally they will pay for themselves (at 35 freaking points they better!), but the lack of any invulnerable is a huge disadvantage for such an expensive unit.

If you must take the Wraithguard, or just want to mess around with new units (they are a lot of fun to have in your army)...

Use one squad of 5 Wraithguard
Warlock w/ Conceal (pretty useful, and in general makes up for the lack of an invulnerable save), or a Heavy flamer to give the unit an edge against swarms.
Wave Serpent w/ Spirit stones, EML, or Shuriken cannon to save a few extra points.
Taking two Shuriken cannons, is also a good way to make the unit a bit more flexible in game-play. 6 s6 shots is pretty substantial.

I would recommend using both WG, and FD, just to make sure your army can cope effectively against MEQ forces. The FD can hunt down stuff like Nobs, Termies, and MC's; while the WG take care of the scary tanks/ walkers. FD are pretty awesome at taking out all kinds of bikes as well, you can tool your squad quite a bit through the Exarch. Firepike is an obvious waste of points, but it can make a pretty big difference in tight situations. If the Firepike were a 24" melta (which it probably should be) it would be a no brainer, but in general the Heavy flamer w/ crack shot is a much better deal. Crack shot both ignores cover, and re-rolls wounds, one of the better upgrades for eldar really.

Yriel really has no place in a WG squad, his role is much better suited to assault units like Warlocks, or Scorpions. An WJJ Autarch w/ fusion gun, is a very effective way to beef out a WS squad, and it will make them extremely potent against transports. Add a WS exarch w/ spinneret rifle into the mix, and that squad will make absolute mince meat out of light armor. A fantastic, and fun unit overall, even if it has some serious drawbacks in the whole... y'know... being wimpy Eldar department. ... floor twelve, on the left. Yeah, you got it.

Your Swooping hawks seem out of place as well, I would using those points to keep the FD around with the WG as well. Alternatively you could switch out the SH for warp spiders, which would suit the list much better. Spiders are not fantastic units, but they can really lay down an awful lot of potent firepower. In any list with tanks, the WS can just hop back and forth into cover behind the tanks. It is hard to get rear armor shots like this, but a squad of 5-6 WS have 10-12 s6 shots. Decent rolls will take care of the rest when facing armor 11; armor 12 is usually a waste of time to shoot at with s6 weapons though.

The Harlequins could work with a Farseer, running around causing havoc. Not a bad combo overall, just too bad the Harlies lose a few neat tricks when put together. I always get the fusion pistols, I see no reason not too. I am not happy about the expense, but having that extra-extra punch, makes the squad very effective against most MC's and Heavy troops. Using the meltas against tanks is really not the point, a 3" range makes that next to impossible most games. Again though, having two s8 BS4 shots is in no way a bad thing. 2 shots is more than enough to crack open a transport, so those WS can go to town on the contents at range.

Here is an example of a solid list in the style that you are going towards.

HQ-

WJJ Autarch w/ fusion gun
105 points

Troops-
(528 points)

X3
(8) Dire avengers
96 points (288 points)

X2
(5) Pathfinders
120 points (240 points)

Elites-
(758 points)

(7) Harlequins w/ H. Kiss, 2x fusion pistols
Shadowseer
204 points

(5) Wraithguard
Warlock w/ Conceal, Spear
218 points
Wave serpent w/ SS, TL Sh. Can, Sh. Can
120 points

(6) Fire Dragons
96 points
Wave serpent w/ SS, TL Sh. Can, Sh. Can
120 points

Fast Attack-
(6) Warp Spiders
Exarch w/ spinneret rifle
149 points

Heavy Support-
(430 points)

(3) WarWalkers w/ Scatterlasers
180 points

X2
Fire Prism w/ SS
125 points (250 points)

30 points over to mess around with.

You could give the Autaurch Mandiblasters + PW, and the WS Exarch PW's as well. Not particularly effective, but they can do quite well, if their saves serve them as such.

If you're not a fan of Fire Dragons, I would say that Farseers and Warlocks are your best bet against tanks. The warlocks come with bonus guardians, too.

Anyway, my farseer and warlocks all together have killed:
-2x Vandetta
-2x Monolith
-1x Nightbringer
-6x Drop Pods
-2x Dreadnaughts
-1x Land Raider Crusader
-1x Rhino

That's just for tanks. I cant count the infantry.

The problem I have with Wraithguard is they only pen 1/3 of the time and don't have AP1. It is much more likely to have the melta guns pen and roll well on the damage chart vs the Wraithguard.

Spending 400+ points to take out a sub 400- unit is a poor tradeoff, especially if you are using Wraithguard who are slow and don't do much in HTH. IMO Wraithguard are best for tarpits for 5 men squads.

I think razorlead's post is the most accurate in the use and results of using fire dragons.

Keep the Fire Dragons.

Truth be told, after they pop their target, they’re usually fodder for the enemy.

Nothing will change that. There’s not a reasonable opponent on earth who’s going to allow 6 melta guns that hit on 3’s to have their way with the battlefield.

They’re the most reliable vehicle killing unit in the game. Think of them as a guided missile – they hit what they’re gonna hit, they almost always get the job done, then they’re gone.

I use 2 squads of 6 mounted in wave serpents in my army and I’m kicking around the idea of adding a 3 squad. They’re worth their weight in gold.

incarna wrote:Keep the Fire Dragons.

Truth be told, after they pop their target, they’re usually fodder for the enemy.

And that is why the eldar are a dying race.

Couple of things...

1st - i'd say keep them unless you are going with the spear wielding council.

2nd - I think you need to look at your tactics for taking on vehicles.... Anything with more than 1 egress point is a pain in the butt. Frankly, there are few times i'd even consider goingafter an open topped vehicle with dragons. Use the serpent to black an access point and use your dragons to attack a point with no egress. That'll make it a bit harder for survivirs to get at you.

3rd - Though dragons are the best AT for eldar I think the dragons best use is as Termie and MC killers. A squad of 10 in a bare bones serpent serpent will eat up 5 terminators with no difficulty.

4th- remember that mor ethan any other armythe eldar all about synergy and mutual support. Use DA and guardians to tie up counter attacks. Use harlies or banshees to pounce on vehicle-less units.

Just my thoughts. Best of luck.

Don't drop the Firedragons, they are amazing! Use them better so they don't get smoked, but hey, if they suck up a lot of firepower, double win for you. You need to use them in tandem with another unit so that when they pop the transport they aren't just sitting their with their willys in their hands waiting to get killed. Have another unit waiting to pounce on the exposed unit so the Dragons can get back in the fight.

Drop the Swooping hawks, those guys are little more than an annoyance with their current rules. They really just suck, you could get a better unit in their, easily.

Drop spirit stones on the warwalkers, that is just wasted points.

Drop the pathfinders down to rangers, as pathfinders suck in 5th ed with everyone having a cover save. Just use the Rangers to babysit an objective and be happy if they manage to kill anything.

Wraithgaurd are in no way a replacement for fire dragons. The only way they are worth a dang, which is rarely, is as a 10 man unit in an elfzilla list where they can be a super tough scoring unit. Even then though, I question their worth.

3 squads of Dires on foot is asking for trouble without screening units or support. They are just too fragile.

Harlies all need to have a kiss, IMO, and no guns apart from a death jester as they will almost always be fleeting. In a mech list they have no place unless they borrow someone else's ride, in a foot list, they rock because they can't be shot until the enemy is in charge range.

Your army is kind of all over the place, you need to mount everything up in serpents, or go all foot. The way you have it is kind of jumbled up without a clear focus. There are too few tanks to really survive, and too few infantry to really survive.

Eldar have to have a list with synergy, or they get hosed. Your infantry are too weak, and your tanks lack a lot of the punch they had in previous editions.

What other models do you have? We can help with a list if we know what you have to draw on.

incarna wrote:Keep the Fire Dragons.

Truth be told, after they pop their target, they’re usually fodder for the enemy.

Nothing will change that. There’s not a reasonable opponent on earth who’s going to allow 6 melta guns that hit on 3’s to have their way with the battlefield.

They’re the most reliable vehicle killing unit in the game. Think of them as a guided missile – they hit what they’re gonna hit, they almost always get the job done, then they’re gone.

I use 2 squads of 6 mounted in wave serpents in my army and I’m kicking around the idea of adding a 3 squad. They’re worth their weight in gold.

That's exactly my experience.
I also usually field two small units in Serpents.
The enemy fears them since their impact usually disrupts his plans.

The reason why harlequins should have fusion guns is because after using Hit & Run at the end of your opponent's assault phase, they will very often be in the perfect place to melta gun a transport then assault the contents, leaving the remnants of the original unit for the rest of your army to deal with.

Harlies are a gamble in the 5th ed.
They are better used in a footslogging Eldar army forcing the enemy to step forward.
Then Harlies form a perfect counter-strike unit.
Smaller units (say in a Falcon) don't cut it due to their low tougness and save.

They're not the best unit in the game by any means. However, if you do take them, the fusion pistols are not the worthless upgrade that many people make them out to be.

If you are certain that you want to drop the Fire Dragons, you can always go heavy on Brightlances - using Wraithlords with BS 4 and Waveserpents with twin-linked shots to pull off some reliable tank-hunting.

I generally feel that there's simply no need to spend all those points to field Wraithguard + transport for the sole purpose of tank-hunting with survivability.

Check out the 'brightlance list' here at http://swordofvaul.blogspot.com/ - it helped me tremendously. It's a 1750 list, that you can bring to 2000 with the addition of Fire Dragons and transport - but the Fire Dragons would best be an 8-man group with an Exarch with crack shot and Dragon's Breath Flamer. That way, you can use them for anti-infantry, and stay a full 12" away, should you decide not to get too close.


Iggy's Brightlance list:

Farseer - doom and fortune, spirit stones (attached to Banshee squad), Runes of Witnessing, Witchblade
Farseer - guide (attached to Dire Avenger squad), Runes of Witnessing, Witchblade
9x Banshees - Executioner
10 x Dire Avengers - Dual catapults, Bladestorm, Defend
10 x Dire Avengers - Dual catapults, Bladestorm, Defend
6 x Jetbikes - 2x Shuriken cannons
3 x Warwalkers - 6x scatter lasers
Waveserpent - spirit stones, brightlance
Waveserpent - spirit stones, brightlance
Waveserpent - spirit stones, brightlance
2 x Wraithlords - brightlance and missile launcher


That's 5x Brightlances, 2 of which are BS4, 3 of which are twin-linked, and then you have 2 missile launchers to boot. Though the Wraithlords might seem out of place in this list, it still works tremendously.

I have a hard time believing that 5 brightlances in an Eldar list is a good idea/sufficient AT.
Whenever you read a thread on Dark Eldar, you will invariably see lists with at least double, if not triple the amount of Dark Lances (=Bright Lance). All those Dark Lances are at BS4. Even with that many Lances, those players complain about them not being effective enough.

I realise Eldar can use Guide to aument our chances of hitting but this makes it even more costly in our lists. I realise we have sturdier transports, so a lance will stay alive longer.
I've never played with Bright Lances but I'm curious to know why 5 lances could work for Eldar while our Dark cousins bring at least double, and probably more than that amount?

It's a personal choice in the end. I'm just saying that I've used that list many times at my club, which is heavily mech-based, and it's never let me down so far.

You pop open the light transports with the Brightlances and missile launchers, and it works. Landraiders, Predators or other Heavily armoured tanks aren't a problem for me. Why? Because I'm not concerned with destroying them. As long as I successfully stun it, I've made its shooting redundant for a turn, to allow me freedom of movement.

I think that a major error that many Warhammer players are guilty of, is rating anti-tank weapons solely on their ability to destroy a vehicle. Remember, there are many more applications - the chances of str8 weaponry, lance weaponry even - stunning a vehicle, is quite high, and it can really turn the tides of battle.

Furthermore, think not of how the Brightlance compares to the weaponry of the Dark Eldar, or any other army. What does the weapon do for you? How does it compliment your army? That's all you should be concerned with. If you spend your time rating armaments and units based on their comparisons to that of other armies, you're not really helping yourself. After all, aren't Scorpions only as good as assault-based marines? Yes, but that doesn't make them any less capable at doing what they're meant to for your army.

Hope that helps

I agree that comparing directly between armies is often pointless, that's why I asked the question the way I did it: what could be a reason that it would work for Eldar (not outtright claiming that it can't).
However, there is nothing special about our Lances, they are exactly the same as our Dark Eldar brothers'. Both can be mounted on fast skimmers. We could both face the same opponent, and we could both get first turn in a game.
Sure we can be satisfied with a stun result and move on to the next target, but so can the Dark Eldar player? Why would a DE player be ridiculed if he posted a list with 5 Dark Lances, and if you are an Eldar player with 5 you are actually quite above avarage in long range AT?

I think that's an issue regarding army versatility. First off, DE aren't that versatile - there really aren't a lot of options available to them. Our Skimmers are far more reliable, and we don't need to invest all of our antitank in one weapon.

As regards going first, that's a topic for another discussion. As an Eldar player, I want to go second, so I can have one last turn to grab objectives, or bring killpoints up. First turn for me, is reserving most, if not everything, to minimise the damage I take