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If I choose to give a squad of conscripts with an attached commissar lord the scout special rule (tactical genius) does the commissar gain it as well? Page 48 first bullet of the BRB states I can place an independent character with a squad during deployment, which is also the same time I choose who to give scout to. Since there is no order for deployment I can have him join first then give the squad scout, and according to page 49 first paragraph the IC is part of the unit. So does that mean he is part of the unit for all intents and purposes?

Another scenario a little less complicated, the conscripts are within 12" of Straken and therefore gain FA and CA, but the commissar is 13" away but part of the squad, does he also gain FA and CA?

I'm thinking no, as you are giving scout to the conscript squad and the commissar lord is a different albeit attached unit and USRs don't transfer except stubborn. A blobbed IG squad of 50 with an upgrade commissar would be able to all outflank tho.

A similar way to think about it would be when you deploy in dawn of war an HQ character attached to a troop choice still counts as an HQ unit.

For Straken the answer would then also be no for the lord commissar getting FA and CA.

Scenario 2 is yes. An IC attached to a squad is a member of the squad and would get FC and CA.

Just to post the reason why the Lord could not scout/outflank, please see thefollowing. Page 48 Special Rules ".... units special rules are nor conferred upon the character" and that scout has a * so from page 74 " The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost ..." when A joins B and A doesn't have the rule.

As Tri pointed out, if you attach the commissar lord to the conscripts they loose the Scout special rule and so cannot outflank.

MasterSlowPoke is also correct that the IC joined to the conscripts belong to the same unit and therefore gets FC & CA.

Ok here is my RAW interpretation. The commissar is part of the unit before they gain the special ability much as the same as straken gives them the ability. It seems like if we all agree that a unit which gains a USR during the course of the game, contains an IC then the IC also gains the USR. So I guess back to my original question why is it different during deployment when the rules state the IC is part of the unit?

USR transference is why they lose scouts. The base squad gains scouts, then the IC is attached, then they lose scouts.

Because you are not reading the deployment rules correctly?

The rules for ICs state they are only part of the unit before the game if they are deployed with them. So you deploy with the unit. The unit has already been given scout, so you join the commisar to the unit...and the unit loses scout as the LC does not have scout. Similar deal if you try to join while in reserve - you hold the commisar back, attempt to join...by which point you have to have declared that the scouting unit is Outflanking. AS the LC cannot join the unit at that point the unit can Outflank, but the LC cannot join them as he lacks the Scout USR.

Well where does it say to assign any USRs first then ICs? Because it works if you assign the ICs first

Oh and I don't use tactical genius to outflank I want the scout move so all the models are physically on the board

i believe it is determined whether a ic is part of the squad at the end of movement if he is within 2" of the squad so therefore would not gain the special rule

Step 1) Place unit
Step 2) Place IC in coherency

You now give the unit Tactical Genius - except the IC does not gain it, as the IC is not joined until the *start* of the game (see ICs joining units)

So when you come to make your scout moves, after deployment but before first turn, the unit can scout but not the IC - the IC has no USR at this point.

Volokov, sorry, but you are incorrect. if they have the Commissar Lord, they cannot outflank.

The rules for ICs state they are only part of the unit before the game if they are deployed with them. So you deploy with the unit. The unit has already been given scout, so you join the commisar to the unit...

Well the rules for Tactical genius state I assign scout 'during my deployment' not before deploying ICs, so I simply wait until I have joined the commissar lord to give scout to them

Volokov, sorry, but you are incorrect. if they have the Commissar Lord, they cannot outflank.

Outflank I understand is different, no unit is deployed and for an IC to be joined he has to be within 2". But I want to make a normal scout move of 6 inches before the game starts, and it seems like the only counter-argument is 'No you can't because I say you can't' Now don't get me wrong thats what I argue against the deffrolla, but from a RAW standpoint I don't see why this wouldn't work

Now I am not TFG so if people have that much of a problem I will leave a trailing line of 3 guardsmen to my commissar so he can be in coherency with them when the game starts, but having said that, I don't think this is exactly that overpowered...

Warboss Tufgrim wrote:As Tri pointed out, if you attach the commissar lord to the conscripts they loose the Scout special rule and so cannot outflank.

MasterSlowPoke is also correct that the IC joined to the conscripts belong to the same unit and therefore gets FC & CA.

It can't be both ways. Either the lord gains the USRs granted to the unit or he doesn't.

Ok well at least you smell what I am cooking in that the two scenarios are the same

Volkov - the IC is not joined until the *start* of the game, which is *after* Scout moves are made. Not joined = no scout move *for the IC*

I had already posted WHY you couldnt do this...

Volkov wrote:Well where does it say to assign any USRs first then ICs? Because it works if you assign the ICs first

Oh and I don't use tactical genius to outflank I want the scout move so all the models are physically on the board

I see where you are going with this, but you *have* to assign the USR to only *1* unit. While an IC is 'part' of the unit, he can still always leave that unit. And hypothetically speaking if you could do this, then he left the squad, who would retain the scout USR as the rule states only 1 unit?

Basically even though the IC is part of the unit, he is still technically his own unit. And so you can not join him to a squad and 'father' him in on a USR going to a different unit he is attached to or vice versa.

Volkov - the IC is not joined until the *start* of the game, which is *after* Scout moves are made. Not joined = no scout move *for the IC*

Except that the second bullet point on pg. 48 allows me to join him during deployment

I see where you are going with this, but you *have* to assign the USR to only *1* unit. While an IC is 'part' of the unit, he can still always leave that unit. And hypothetically speaking if you could do this, then he left the squad, who would retain the scout USR as the rule states only 1 unit?

Basically even though the IC is part of the unit, he is still technically his own unit. And so you can not join him to a squad and 'father' him in on a USR going to a different unit he is attached to or vice versa.

Ok would you say the Lord does not gain the benefits (FC CA) from Straken if he was part of the unit that was within 12" but he himself was 13" away? Does an Ork warboss joined to a nob biker sqaud with painboy not get feel no pain?

Wargear != Special Rules.

VOlkov - no, it lets you *start the game* with the unit *by deploying in coherency* - there is a difference.