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I am working on my Non-Landraider army. Rhinos and Razerbacks only. I have Ragnar Blackmane is a Rhino with 9 man GH unit. I am told it's not a good idea.
What is the best way to Get My main Assault unit into the battle? I do play aginst a few players who Destroy foot troops with heavy weapons1st turn. (Vindicators,Plaz cannons ect. ) Without a LR to take lots of hits.
Rhino and Razerbacks go down easy aginst Heavy support armies. My long fangs with LaserCannons get taken out early without Hard targets(LR's). (I would do the same) Extra Armor doesn't work. Myself and my opponents seem to Shoot up vehicles until they are destroyed. I have a LOT of 40K Vehicles and don't want to get into Drop Pods. I know Smoke is very useful. Help? Sugestions ?

It really is a play-style debate. It's kind of annoying when people see you don't have a Land Raider and the first thing they say is, "that list is horrible! get a Land Raider!" A player at my flgs uses nothing but Rhinos with 10 man Tac squads with ML/Flamer, 2 Assault Squads, and a cheap captain, and he wins with enough regularity to give his vanilla strategy credence.

You don't need Land Raiders to have a successful assault army. I've seen SoB and Khorne have success getting to the enemy with just Rhinos, Deployment, bold movement (i.e. through terrain rather than around it), and adequate supporting fire...in other words, I've seen good players play well with a balanced list.

By having 200 points freed up by not taking a LR, you can have more Rhinos with GH, LFs, Vindicators, etc. A LR dies pretty easily to a melta weapon...just like a Rhino which is a fraction of its points.

Land Raiders are great, but not necessary.

So as far as specific tactical suggestions go:
Keep your Rhinos close. Having supporting units within the 14.9" assault range of the Rhino is very important. Having multiple Rhinos also allows your more valuable units to steal Rhinos and press on. Remember that not all of your Rhino units need to be uber killy. A Rhino with a 5 man GH unit and 1 meltagun can kill transports to give Ragnar a target.

As a SW, you should be able to act in 2 or 3 groups depending on the points level. The "block" of Rhinos take one direction, and then you have Lascannons/Demolisher Cannons at support range and a fast/infiltrate unit to flank and take out isolated enemy units or finish off the depleted ones.

Just my thoughts, take 'em or leave 'em. Hope I helped.

Beat your opponent to punch.

Take your LongFangs in drop pod add Logan Grimnar and Wolf Guard with termie cyclone. Logan gives them relentless and they fire on your opponent's heavy weapon squad.

Expensive? yes. Effective? yes

I like rhino rush better.

Rhinos are some of the best points spent in 40k. At the end of an objective game, any rhino still living is a threat to infantry squads trying to hold objectives.

Tank shock is, in many ways, one of the more powerful attacks in the game, not in terms of ability to kill models, but in terms of being able to win games.

SoB don't get Land Raiders unless we take an Inquisitor or DH allies so we don't really have a choice
But it can be a good tactic as people can underestimate the Rhino every now and again. Also there's nothing wrong with a good old Rhino rush

The main problem with the Land Raiders is the reaction they usually get, which is panic. Without one you lose that advantage, but get 250 points to use on something to make your army work a little better that won't get every strength 8+ weapon on the field blasting or smashing it until it's gone. They're nice, but not a necesity. Black Templars would be the best at it though as they can use the same tactics as a Rhino Rush army, but with Land Raiders. It all comes down to playstyle though. Generally you won't want to get out of the Rhino unless you're sure that the unit inside it can wipe out the target with the Rhinos support. Always keep them moving as well a if they get in CC they will be folded like tin foil. For 10 points you can give them an extra Storm Bolter and they can throw out 4 Bolter shots if needed which is nice. Also it's a good idea to give them Extra Armour that way they can keep moving if they get stunned. If I remember the points right that works out to cost as much as the old Rhinos did (and the SoB ones do) 50 points.

I guess a few Vindicators or maybe a Predator or two for support would also be a good idea for it. Dreadnoughts might be alright, but will probably be too slow for this type of army. But, then again that comes down to playstyle.

Well, Rhinos are the work horses of a mech SM army.
They are rather resilient in the 5th ed and taking a bunch of them
accompanied by some support vehicles, like Vindicator or Dreads,
they can deliver their payload.

I face a lot of Vindicators. It is a move or fire weapon. It came down to who is going to move into 24" range first. After moving I would have to hold on for the opponent's turn, until I can fire.
I broke down my vindi and Pred's into Rhino/razerbacks. My 1st 5th ed army is SoB. With so many rhino based vehicles there are more targets to spread out the attacks. I started fielding my Long Fangs with Laser cannons for long range kill power. DNs' don't last the 1st few turns. They becone a target for missile launchers. A group of DN's would be better than 1.

Vindicators are not a "move or fire" weapon. In 3rd ed rules they were, but haven't been for two editions.

In fact, Vindicators can to some extent accompany the Rhinos
by moving 6'' and shooting their scary big blast.

One of my weakness has always been when to deploy units inside Rhino's. With Sob I would get a little closer then set up the fire lines. Lately I have been deploying, when the transport is destroyed.
I thought of keeping a 5man unit with a free flamer in reserve.Using them to take objectives after most of the heavy killing is done. But I would have less vehicles to overwelm the Vindi's & LR.
I just don't have Scouts worked out yeat. Melta bombs and a melta gun from behind the lines is cool. I am not there yeat.

resinmann wrote:I face a lot of Vindicators. It is a move or fire weapon. It came down to who is going to move into 24" range first. After moving I would have to hold on for the opponent's turn, until I can fire.
I broke down my vindi and Pred's into Rhino/razerbacks. My 1st 5th ed army is SoB. With so many rhino based vehicles there are more targets to spread out the attacks. I started fielding my Long Fangs with Laser cannons for long range kill power. DNs' don't last the 1st few turns. They becone a target for missile launchers. A group of DN's would be better than 1.

Vindicators can move and fire.

wuestenfux wrote:In fact, Vindicators can to some extent accompany the Rhinos
by moving 6'' and shooting their scary big blast.

Rhinos also help the Vindicator by screening its weaker side armor.

vindicators move and fire? I thought the vindi can't move or even turn in place to fire the Ordnance weapon. brb pg 58 top right paragraph. If I am wrong. I will need page num ect to back up my claim.
I have a small list of ecptions to rules I have found. It would be nice to add that. A vindi just got more powerful and more dangerous.

resinmann wrote:vindicators move and fire? I thought the vindi can't move or even turn in place to fire the Ordnance weapon. brb pg 58 top right paragraph. If I am wrong. I will need page num ect to back up my claim.
I have a small list of ecptions to rules I have found. It would be nice to add that. A vindi just got more powerful and more dangerous.

The Vindicator's Demolisher cannon is an ordnance weapon. It follows the rules given under the bottom left heading of "ordnance weapons" meaning the only restriction is that you can only fire the demolisher cannon and no defensive weapons in the same turn. The top right paragraph refers to ordnance barrage weapons. These are weapons that have both the ordnance and barrage types, like Basilisks and Whirlwinds. You may choose to remain stationary and fire the weapon indirectly OR you may move and fire it directly just like regular ordnance. The Vindicator is only an ordnance weapon and not subject to the ordnance barrage restrictions.

I do believe that in some printings of the SM codex the summary mistakenly lists the Vindicator's demolisher cannon as being an ordnance barrage weapon. However, as Panzerleader has correctly pointed out, ordnance barrage weapons may be fired directly just like ordnance weapons, so it doesn't really matter either way.

Thanks for the Vindicator rules. It changes everything. It's too bad, Now I will have to face 2(or3) moving and shooting STR10 pieplates.

I would like to end this forum. In my gaming experiance Razerbacks and Rhino's don't hold up well vs Vindicators and other heavy hitters.