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So help me I was bored:

HQ
Chaplain w/Jump Pack 115
Libarian w/Null Zone, Force Dome, Jump Pack 125

Elites
Venerable Dreadnought
w/Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter
Drop Pod
w/Locator Beacon

Venerable Dreadnought
w/Extra Armour, Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod
w/Locator Beacon

Troops
Tactical Space Marines (10)
w/Sergeant with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword, Brethren with Flamer, Plasma Cannon
Drop Pod

Tactical Space Marines (10)
w/Sergeant with Bolt Pistol and Chainsword, Brethren with Flamer, Plasma Cannon
Drop Pod

Scout Squad (5)
w/Combat Blades and Heavy Bolter

Fast Attack
Assault Marines (10)
w/Sergeant with Powerfist, Brethren with two Flamers

Land Speeder Storm

Everything starts in reserves, with the two Dreadnought-bearing Pods leading the Drop Pod Assault. They land and murder stuff, providing Locator Beacons for whatever else might Deep Strike.

Not much anti vehicle. I'd throw in melta bombs and maybe put one of the dreadnoughts as a multi melta.

You probably don't need the locator beacons either, Drop Pods are pretty accurate by themselves. I would probably give the scouts a powerfist or meltabombs in case you want a first turn assault on a vehicle.

Agree there isn't enough AT. Consider multi meltas for the dreads and perhaps the tacs as well.

The scouts seem a bit schizo...combat blades AND a heavy bolter. Go shooty or go hitty. With the storm i'd say go hitty and give the sergeant a powerfist.

I'd also seriously consider dropping on eof the HQ's and going for a regular podded dread. Everything counts in numbers and 3 dreads are WAY better than 2.

ender502

Yeah drop the Heavy Bolter on the scouts get a fist or meltabombs and power weapon. Give the storm a heavy flamer with Scout BS the heavy bolter is not much of a threat.

Other than that I concur with my colleagues on need more AT in the list I'd probably swap both the Dreads Assault Cannons for Multimeltas.

Not quite sure why you need a Chaplain AND a Libby in this list if you're going to take the Libby and all those locators why no Gate? Even with eth Chaplain and Libby that Assault squad will be far from a monster unit and will still be point for point worse off against almost any assault troop.

Tcas are fine but for an "assault" list you have very little that is much threat in an assault.

Fast Attack
Assault Marines (10)
w/Sergeant with Powerfist, Brethren with two Flamers

I'd consider a Vanguard unit as it eventually can charge upon arrival.
In a drop pod list, I'd take Sternguard Veterans with combi-meltas in a Pod.

The Assault Cannons on the Dreadnoughts are anti-tank weapons equivalent to Lascannons, and they give good results vs Monstrous Creatures, particularly with the Venerable Dreadnought's BS5 and the ability to land flanking enemy vehicles.

The Locator Beacons aren't for the second wave of Drop Pods, but for the Combat Squads of Assault Marines that would be coming down in reserve from Deep Strike, and the Land Speeder if necessary.

The Tactical squads are intended to drop and split into Combat squads as well, giving the army five Troop units. Like the Assault Marines they're armed so that they can drop into swarms of bugs, Orks, and dismounted Imperial Guard and work on clearing them.

The Assault squads aren't meant to be a monster unit. They're meant to be two counter-assault units, with some ability to thin hordes and act defensively (if they lose on the enemy turn, then they try Combat Tactics to exit, regroup, return, flame, and then charge again).

The Scout Squad with the close combat weapons is designed to take and hold a backfield, so they combine the ability to fight somewhat in close combat with a decent anti-infantry weapon that they can use while they camp the objective. In retrospect I think I would add Melta Bombs to somewhat deter Tank Shocks, and the cloaks for Stealth.

It's a 1500 point list, with the Assault part being that the Space Marines dictate the time and place of the battle - the Dreadnoughts show up early while the rest show up depending on how that fight goes around the enemy-held objectives.

Lascannons aren't an antitank gun though only any good against AV12 and below. So you still lack anti-tank.

Yeah your army can drop in and do OK against hordes, but you'll struggle against mech. Combat squading the assault squad will leave one squad with absolutely no punch what so ever even as a counter assault. For the Cha[plain to be beneficial he really needs 10 assault marines minimum.

I can see what you're trying with the scouts, but I still think they'll do neither job well and the storm should always come with a flamer. I've never been convinced by the peicemeal approach of a DP army, but then I've played as Tau a lot so I love DP armies to fight against.

But could be effective though I still think it needs more tuning.

FlingitNow:

Lascannons are anti-tank since they can penetrate AV14, and Assault Cannons are better at penetrate AV14, and have the potential for more damage thanks to their shots.

And that's into the side or rear armour of any tanks, so there's no real lack of anti-tank considering taking Multi-Meltas would handy-cap the Venerable Dreadnoughts against Monstrous Creatures and the like.

Combat Squading the Assault Squad means that each of the Librarian and the Chaplain have a small squad to lead in counter-assault.

Likewise I think you mistake the notion behind the army: The whole point is that the Dreadnoughts pile in first, and then the Tacticals, Assault Marines, and Scouts come down later in the game. The idea is to put the way Space Marine drop armies show up unreliably on the second turn, and turn it into them showing up reliably on the 3+ turn.

That's why the Dreadnoughts are Venerable, not just for the advantages of WS and BS, but to add something to help them survive a close and unsupported first turn against a 1500pt enemy; It's not necessary that they survive, but the damage that they do sets up the next wave.

Nurglitch-

Some good points there. I think you have a good plan but i think you just need a bit more punch in the first wave. The best part about the dread drop (assuming they survive your opponents shooting) isn't necesarily the damage they'll do but there ability to tie up units in HTH on the turn after they come down. If survivability is what you are looking for i'd consider siege dreads... No matter what I'd still try and find the points for another dread. Everything counts in #'s.

ender502

First is a rules error. Squads held in reserve can't be split into combat squads.

That being said. Simply split the marines into two seperate squads and then you are fine.

The math for the assault cannon is 3 shots 1.5 hits, 1 in 6 of hitting the 6 for rending +d3 damage need a 2 or 3 to damage AV 14. So 1 in 9 for shots that hit. Lascannon is 1 in 3 for shots that hit. Multi melta is 4 in 9 for shots that hit vs AV 14.

That is why we are suggesting multi meltas. Ignore us if you want, we are simply saying what we would do.

If you want to stick your dreads near enemy units that the assault marines are to come after I'd say do the melta. If you want to keep your dreads outside of the 12" extra melta penetration damage range I'd say keep the assault cannons that you have. Simple as that in the end.

Ringarin:

Squads arriving via Drop Pod can decide to split into Combat Squads when they disembark.

Assault marines coming in by deep strike don't use drop pods.

Where do you see the drop pods allowing combat squad splits?

Ringarin wrote:Where do you see the drop pods allowing combat squad splits?

Under the tactical marine squads?

Ah, must have missed that some how.

Nurglitch wrote:
Likewise I think you mistake the notion behind the army: The whole point is that the Dreadnoughts pile in first, and then the Tacticals, Assault Marines, and Scouts come down later in the game. The idea is to put the way Space Marine drop armies show up unreliably on the second turn, and turn it into them showing up reliably on the 3+ turn.

I don't see anything here that is going to change the unreliability of reserve roles.

To be honest, I think arriving piecemeal will end badly. Any decent army should be able to handle one or two units each turn, especially if those units cannot assault the turn they appear, and it's not like the units that are dropping are particularly dangerous either.

Venerable dreadnoughts are over costed for what they do. Go ironclads for assault goodness or normal dreads and save yourself some points. Throw deathwinds on the drop pods for big blast template goodness.

Chaplain is ok-ish. Librarian with nullzone, doesn't have a unit which can cause a lot of invulnerable saves, your not forcing your opponent to take invulnerable saves.

Drop those scouts and get another land speeder, give them both multi meltas and heavy flamers for armour/infantry busting.

You need something which will brign reserves in quicker - do marines have anything, I cannot remember.

mercer:

No, I like the compromise between the range and firepower of the regular Dreadnought with the survivability (in fact more, given the prevalence of Melta weaponry) of the Ironclad plus better reliability.

The Librarian will be accompanying the Assault Squad combat squad with the Powerfist, so that and his own Force Weapon will be causing Invulernable saves.

I'm keeping the Scouts.

I've already pointed out that the army is designed so that the reserves come in later rather than sooner, right?

Space Marines can have Chief Librarian Tigurius, but like I said his reserves bonus is anti-thetical to the strategy I'm showcasing here.

Against meltas venerable probably won't matter tha much because you get +1 on the dice rolls.

Thats only 2 weapons which cause invulnerable saves. Not a lot. Presuming you hit thats a maximum of 6 invulnerable saves (if I'm correct). Thats if you hit and wound of course.

What is your reasons for wanting reserves to come in later for? I can see you talking about reserves but not coming in later for any reason, have I missed something?

mercer:

I'd consider it to be the other way around with Melta Guns: the AV13 of the Ironclad isn't going to matter because 2D6+8 will go through AV13 as easily, if not moreso, and re-rolling bad results when it inevitably does is more valuable. And then there's the added bonus of BS5 for the first turn when the Dreadnought can't fire.

The Assault Cannons, Plasma Cannons, Powerfist, Force Weapon, and Crozius would all force Invulnerable saves.

My reason for wanting to come in later is basically that I want to deny my opponent the ability to shoot up my army for a full 5-7 Turns. The idea is to keep as much in reserve as possible, and bring them in like reserves - that's why there's four Drop Pods, so the first wave won't expend any troops.

Something that I've considered is dropping the Librarian for a Master of the Forge, and dropping the Scouts and Assault Marines for more Dreadnoughts, and more dangerous things to mount on the Whirlwinds.

Nurglitch wrote:The Assault Cannons on the Dreadnoughts are anti-tank weapons equivalent to Lascannons, and they give good results vs Monstrous Creatures, particularly with the Venerable Dreadnought's BS5 and the ability to land flanking enemy vehicles.

and just don't forget Lascannons are not that great against Tanks in the first place. They great at transport and light armour but vs. AR14 good luck. Melta are anti-tank

General_Chaos:

I already addressed that: Assault Cannons are superior to Lascannons at ranges less than 24" and when side/rear armour is exposed to a Deep Strike. Against AV14 they're good enough to Stun or Immobilized, particularly since they have a potential for up to 4x the damage.

4*(5/6*1/6*1/3)= your chances of penetrating AV 14 = 20/108 = really bad odds all things considered.

Mind you, the odds for GALNCING AV 14 are only double that.

As sound as your tactical sense may be on most occasions, mathhammer fails you at this juncture. If your dreadnought spent 5 turns plinking away at a 14 tank, you'd have fairly good odds of penetrating it once.

By the way, the odds of destroying something with AV 14 with assault cannons are 5/83

In conclusion, you desperately need more anti tank. not just melta bombs either, they were once a staple when you could give them to entire squads but now, due to their limited ability, they are not the most viable option.

Why would the Dreadnought spend five turns "plinking" away at an AV14 vehicles? I'm pretty sure that Dreadnoughts come with a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon. Besides, have you consider the relative effectiveness of Multi-Meltas against Monstrous Creatures? Assault Cannons may not be ideal against Land Raiders (because, let's face it, they're the only AV14 vehicles who don't have pathetic rear and side armour), but being ideal against Land Raiders would be a trade off against being ideal against Monstrous Creatures and Infantry. The Assault Cannon is a good compromise.

It all depends on who you face. If you face a Deathwing army with a lot of Land Raiders then you should switch armament, otherwise try it a few times and see which works good. Or if you do the magnet route you can just switch arms each fight.

Nurglitch wrote:mercer:

I'd consider it to be the other way around with Melta Guns: the AV13 of the Ironclad isn't going to matter because 2D6+8 will go through AV13 as easily, if not moreso, and re-rolling bad results when it inevitably does is more valuable. And then there's the added bonus of BS5 for the first turn when the Dreadnought can't fire.

The Assault Cannons, Plasma Cannons, Powerfist, Force Weapon, and Crozius would all force Invulnerable saves.

My reason for wanting to come in later is basically that I want to deny my opponent the ability to shoot up my army for a full 5-7 Turns. The idea is to keep as much in reserve as possible, and bring them in like reserves - that's why there's four Drop Pods, so the first wave won't expend any troops.

Something that I've considered is dropping the Librarian for a Master of the Forge, and dropping the Scouts and Assault Marines for more Dreadnoughts, and more dangerous things to mount on the Whirlwinds.

Totally agree about Ironclad. Point about venerable is still +1 on melta, so re-roll and even a 2+ spells a weapon destroyed. I've used and sold mine now, pretty model but for the points standard dreadnought I found better, personaly.

You get cover saves from ranged weapons. You don't get cover saves from c.c weapons, which forces invulnerable saves.

You dropping just the dreadnoughts on the first turn then?

A all dreadnought army does sound interesting...

i must say that in my experiance in big 5000 point a side games (tau + eldar vs 2 sm players) they sm players dropping 6 dreads in pods (2 irons, 1 seige and 3 normals) in turn one kinda hurt a bit, but they didn't last long enough to do much damage to one end of the line,we just moved away from them and blew them to smitherines. If your going for the dreads as a first turn assult make sure to get them onto something important before they are just left standing around with nothing to hit.

Lordy g! You have a good basis, but I feel like no matter what, youre going to lose Dreads. Doesnt matter if they're Ironclads, Vens, or regular. You will lose some.
Thats why I would take, like, oh, 4-5. In Drop pods. You HAVE to overload, or else you can easily take out 2 dreads. Both my IG and Marines at 1k would have a field day with just two dreads.

Their weapons is your call, I like a mix of Ass Cann and MM, with one or two HF for good measure. Obviously, 4-5 Dreads needs a MotF, and you can drop him in too, or make a nice camping unit with some scouts to hold an objective.

I personally feel that the 4-5 Dreads is a good enough drop force. Your marines can then move up the field relatively unscathed, as your Dreads will be raising hell. Geez, you could even get the JP guys up there without too many shots being sent their way.

Oh: and 5k is a whole different can of worms. Done right, on a 6'x4' table, 4-5 DP should be all you need to eat a large chunk of his force.