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Hey guys,

I've been building a guard army over the past couple of months and I have yet to actually test it... (it's two squads away from completion) and really I just went for a list I found awesome rather than one that I thought would win games.

Anyway, essentially it's a 1500 point gunline with 8 shock trooper units (I've not got my list on hand) a psychic battle squad (9 psykers), basilisk, LR Demolisher with Plasma Cannons and Valkyrie + Melta Vets.

I'm a pretty new player so I have no idea about how it's going to fair but the plan was to just sit back and hope the enemy concentrates fire on the Demolisher whilst the valkyrie whizzes around to drop off vets behind the enemy tanks...

I was hoping that the Shock Troopers might pepper the enemy to death with autocannons and grenade launchers.

Aaand ofc the Basilisk (and a heavy weapons squad which I have yet to arm... I may just redistribute the points depending on the ideas I get here, I'm 15 points off 1500 and will save another 120 if I scrap the lascannons... I've been wondering if I can make use of the sentinels I got with the battleforces I used

But anyhoo, I get that the flavour of victory is to spam chimeras or some shizzle, not really read into it to be honest, I'm more of a fluffy casual player than a tournie guy and I consider a mechanised guard army to be a little too "gamey" and a bit less "epic" than a huge wave of bodies.

But what I have in mind happening now is a Land Raider taking advantage of my weak AT, killing my LR and gurging out some Termies onto my gunline... then I am screwed?

Do I need to drop some infantry for some Rough Riders or something? What should I do? Should I get an LR with a Vanquisher cannon (was in my original list)?

In Big Friendly Letters: Don't Panic!
Welcome to the wonderful world of Guard were everyone will slaughter you in CC. Anyway Lascannons do't really work against Land Raiders. If you have 8 squads of infantry (wow) use a few as speedbumps. Position a squad of 10 w/nothing in front of a blobed squad or a LRD. You will lose combat by a lot and you will run and get killed... Remember: Don't Panic! Order your blobed squad to FRFSRF on the exposed enemy. OR if you have equiped them with power weapons assault the power armored beasts and grind them down. (Penal Legion anyone?) Your Valkyrie mounted Melta Vets will then be able to kill the raider. Tip: equip your PCS with either all flamers (and a vox) OR all melta (and a vox). In a gunline orders are your friends and even at BS 3 twin linked meltas will kill anything!
On the Vanquisher i haven't yet tried it it certainly looks promising but with everything getting cover now i would humbly suggest the Devildog.

Heh, thanks for that advice... my one niggle is wondering how the heck I am going to get my hands on that many meltas I am going to have to buy a command squad box simply to finish off my veterans (one melta short).

Well, Shock Troopers do not really shock anyone. A single squad regardless of its armament has relatively little firepower. Of course it is also cheap, so that is in order. As konst80hummel pointed out, squadding them up or blobbing them together is a very viable option. It allows you to use your limited orders more efficiently. This notwithstanding, you should play what you like - you can always adapt and make slight changes over time if you feel you must.

For your Psykers to be really effective, I would include another unit that can pin. A Heavy Weapon Squad with mortars is cheap and cheerful and does not suffer the problems that other HWS suffer, namely being ID'able by S6 weapons and generally being easy pickings. Ratlings are another unit that also provides some measure of anti-Monster firepower, and rarely break the budget, pointswise.

In general, gunlines have indeed gone out of fashion, and for good reason. Gunlines only work well when an opponent jogs up to you over an open field. With the plethora of deployment options (outflanking, scouting, infiltrating, deep striking...plus running and driving fast), you simply cannot sit back. The second huge problem of a gunline is that they don't have the means to get to objectives. Yes, they can run too but they are fragile, and cannot shoot if they do. The Move, move, move! order can go some way to ameliorate this problem but most people will target your officers. I realize you do have the Valkyrie but that is only a single AV12 vehicle. As cool and useful as that is, a single one is relatively easily neutralized.

You do indeed have comparatively little to stop Land Raiders. The currently fashionable armada of light transports should go down to concentrated autocannon fire but AV 14 is problematic, as the only reliable unit consists of the Vets. A very basic tenet of the Imperial Guard is redundancy, as one squad will be dead and the second will miss, so you need the third to accomplish the task. This isn't always true of course - a CCS with 4 meltas and an order is usually enough to destroy a main battle tank but you get the gist.

Terminators can be killed by plasmaguns if they are the standard variety. If they carry storm shields however, massed - massed! - small arms fire is a more cost-efficient way. Again, orders come in quite handy, as does blobbing. When you do blob however, consider adding one or two commissars - your men simply won't budge unless you decide that they should get out of the way for another volley by pulling the commissar and reducing their leadership. With the addition of a simple powersword, infantry blobs of 20-30 men can also push way above their weight in close combat - just don't let any walker get close.

For an all-infantry force, orders really are a must, so consider taking two Company Command Squads - they've got the best orders. Keep objectives in mind and start moving early enough, remember your orders, order blobbed squads for high-density firepower, watch your flanks, shoot transports first so that the opposition has to footslog it too and don't despair - losing a company of His Most Glorious Imperial Guard means absolutely nothing to the Imperium!

So drop my 3 lascannons, perhaps get mortars and arm my CCS with meltaguns? Atm they have plasma guns...

For example, yes. Lascannon aren't all bad though. Perhaps you can swap out two autocannon for lascannon in your line squads; with an order, that is two twin-linked S9 shots. They can also start taking off the odd wound of Monstrous Creatures from a distance.

Pinning is nice but doesn't work against many armies. Orks are fearless until they only number 11 models, Nids, some CSM, Daemons, everything around an Avatar...lots of stuff is, and that doesn't even include mechanized lists, as all passengers are impervious to pinning and most psychic attacks. Still, the mortar squad is cheap, will hopefully fire all game long because it is out of sight and thanks to the multiple barrage rules can harass especially light infantry. Shoot the transport first and then hit them with the mortar blasts.

Oh, having no CC capabilities IS a drawback but at the end of the day, IG is a shooting force, and you have invested those points in more men and guns, so there.

Here's my Army List with revisions... still 35 points more to mess around with though:

HQ:

Command Squad:
Company Command Squad -145 points
Laspistol
Veteran with Meltagun
Veteran with Meltagun
Veteran with Medpack
Master of Ordnance
Regimental Standard

Troops:

1st Platoon Command:
Command Squad -60 points
Plasma Gun
Plasma Gun


Infantry Squad 1 -65 points
Autocannon
Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 2 -65 points
Autocannon
Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 3 -65 points
Autocannon
Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 4 -65 points
Autocannon
Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 5 -65 points
Autocannon
Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 6 -65 points
Autocannon
Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 7 -75 points
Lascannon
Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 8 -75 points
Lascannon
Grenade Launcher

Psychic Battle Squad -105 points
five additional psykers

Veteran Squad
3 meltaguns -100 points

Valkyrie -115 points
-Lascannon

Heavy Weapons Squad -60 points
3x Mortars

Heavy Support:

Leman Russ Squadron:
Leman Russ Demolisher -205 points
Plasma Cannon Sponsoons

Ordnance Battery:
Basilisk 1 -125 points

Total: 1465

Your CCS is a bit problematic. It apparently tries to do different incompatible things. You want those meltas in their face asap (which they cannot do on foot) but the Master wants to stay put. You rely on your opponent to actively drive into melta range (or to within 12"). While that may well happen, it isn't reliable. The Vets I assume go into the Valkyrie?

Your infantry looks good. Spend those 35 points on the second mandatory Platoon Command squad that you are missing. You cannot have eight line squads in one platoon.

The Psykers are usually equipped with an APC, too. Your best bet is to keep them in cover and even go to ground, then use Get back in the fight - if you haven't used your CCS as a suicide unit to stop a transport with nasty cargo.

Dont you need a second platoon command squad in there?

If you can, change the valk to a vendetta .... and either way it wouldnt hurt to put the heavy bolters on the valk/ vend if you can find the points. With a pregame scout move or an outflanking reserve move the vend will often be able to drop off its emlta troops in a good spot, but in case thats not possible 3 TL las cannons make the vend a great tank killer in its own right. With a pregame scout move to within 12" of a heavy target the vend can then move 6", unload its melta troops to shoot at the heavy armor while the vend itself fires at a second heavy target. Or possibly some termies who might come spilling out of a dead LR....

With the number of bodies you are going to be fielding it might be worthwhile looking at a few heavy weapon squads to further up your guns to points ratio.

It might also be worthwhile at least looking at getting a few chimeras, they give a lot for the points cost. At least think about how much better life would be for the psycher squad, heh.



Sliggoth

Ack I am pretty stupid, eh? I figured that that the CCS could control infantry...

I did consider getting the Psykers a Chimera but I couldn't think about where I'd find the points...

I'll be experimenting with the Valk It can slide the bolters back behind the doors so you can play it with or without.

As for the CCS, I guess I should assign the meltaguns to the Platoon Command Squad?

First, please use another term in your subject line for your getting defeated badly or something to that effect.

Second there really isn't a reason to not have close combat capabilities. You can add Straken or Creed for furious charge and then add power weapons on your sarges and commissar for some good close combat ability.

Third Commisar is a requirement for 1 per infantry platoon so your combined squads gets stubborn leadership 9.

When it comes to guard I have one simple rule "shoot first shoot some more, and when everything is dead try to take an objective or two" Typically the only CC I have in my army is a squad of rough riders. I usually take Creed as well to give them furious assault. They are my get out of jail free card. Didn't manage to kill that land raider and now khorne beserkers are ripping through your line? Rough riders will run them down like grass. But only one unit per game. But that is it. Nothing else, no power weapons, and NO COMMISSARS! If you are fighting an assault army do not blob your squads, keep them seperate and as far apart from each other as possible. That way assault armies will jack up only one squad and even if a guardsmen managed to survive he will run allowing you to shoot the evil-doers, Commissars will keep poor Joe Blow guardsmen in combat until the next turn where he will die and then they can charge a second unit

There's a few ways to look at it.

I think it's perfectly viable to plan to shoot your way out; in that case, I'd heed Volk's advice about squads and commissars.

On the other hand, I think tooling up a blob to be able to handle CC can find a place in many builds, as a counter-assault unit, screen, and/or tarpit. Seems to me like 30 men is a good minimum, up to 6 PW's. Maybe some meltabombs for walker duty.

I also think the guard could pretty much be built as an assault army, with multiple platoons, PCS's with commies and kitted for CC, rough riders, big bloated CCS's with bodyguards and advisors, characters, and maybe even some priests (god knows they get no love around here). I just don't know how good an army like that would be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree with the subject line wording advice. For some, it means alot more than losing a game of toy soldiers.

Changed subject line, evidently I'm just too used to gamer slang eh?

I've been thinking about the point regarding the Master of Ordnance... how he should sit back, it's making me wonder if I should just get lascannon emplacements in the command squad?

If the CCS is sitting back, I think you could keep the MoO and change up the meltaguns (they need mobility to close the range). A lascannon and sniper rifles would give you good range. Drop the medic pack and you could squeeze two plasma in.

OKAY:

Swapped the two meltaguns on the CCS for a lascannon, got rid of the other two lascannons on the infantry squads and replaced with autocannons, saving 20 points... Used those points to put meltaguns on a new PCS which I just added as people rightly pointed out I have more than one platoon.

That totals to 1495.

Nice and snug?

Nice and snug. Stick a meltabomb into your Lieutenant's bandolier and go playtest your list. Playing with it will be worth more than half a dozen pages on this thread because there's just so many variations, combinations and differences.

Avariel wrote:
Second there really isn't a reason to not have close combat capabilities. You can add Straken or Creed for furious charge and then add power weapons on your sarges and commissar for some good close combat ability.

There also isn't a dire necessity to bring CC assets in every list. I agree that a few powerswords here and there are nifty but you don't need Straken. Creed is pretty good for an infantry list but the reason not to take him is simple: Points! :-)

Volkov wrote:
That way assault armies will jack up only one squad and even if a guardsmen managed to survive he will run allowing you to shoot the evil-doers, Commissars will keep poor Joe Blow guardsmen in combat until the next turn where he will die and then they can charge a second unit

Not when you have blobs of 30 men. Very few units can reliably chew through such tarpits, T3 or not, and if you meet one, shoot it up a little before it gets to close.

Heh well thanks a lot for all your help guys, seriously appreciate it.

The army won't be up and running until I can beat the University into paying me my scholarship (which will totally be spent on academic excellence?).

Atm I've got 4 infantry squads, the psykers, the veterans (bar one melta gun) 2 Command Squads, the LR and the Valkyrie assembled... I have enough bitz to make the third CS but it looks like I am going to have to go shopping for some more shock troops and one more heavy weapon box (to make the mortars) before this baby'll be properly ready... Guard sure are expensive compared to SM...

Just my 2 cents....for me the medipack has been a life saver for my Company Commander...my usual opponent is a chaos player and always gets his demon prince to my CCS and FNP Saved my squad numerous times...and its always worth seeing the look on his face when his demon prince doesnt do crap do some tiny humans. So id say keep it.

You don't need assault (check Tau and you'll see what I wean) but it would be usefull to have a counter charge unit but if not make sure that the enemy never gets there. This can be done by sacrificing squads to slow them down, overwhelming firepower or mobility. Your army can do to but you definetely need a fast objective capturer/ contester. This will likely be another Valk/Vendetta or chimera bound squad. Also if you have a look you'll find that Chimera's are a good source of firepower and I agree that PBS should have one.

Kazerkinelite wrote:Just my 2 cents....for me the medipack has been a life saver for my Company Commander...my usual opponent is a chaos player and always gets his demon prince to my CCS and FNP Saved my squad numerous times...and its always worth seeing the look on his face when his demon prince doesnt do crap do some tiny humans. So id say keep it.

That doesn't seem possible since a Demon Prince ignores armor saves in close combat, thereby negating FNP.

Volkov wrote: and even if a guardsmen managed to survive he will run allowing you to shoot the evil-doers, Commissars will keep poor Joe Blow guardsmen in combat until the next turn where he will die and then they can charge a second unit

Never forget that you can always allocate some of the nasty PW/PF attacks to the comissar to kill him if needed. Of course it's a shame to lose a 30 pts. char that way but hey, we're the guard, our live is so ******* hard (and it's worth the cost if you can flame away the evil attackers in your turn). Comissars are however a must have for any big blob, even berzerkers will have a hard time to get through the 31 guardsmen trying to kill them with their nasty hidden PWs...
And if you got Creed in your list, you can even charge them with S4/I4 .