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So, after working on my Death Guard I've been kicking around the idea of running a Grey Knights list of 1500 points. The main aspect I have been debating is whether to take PAGK's or stormtroopers.

PAGK's are better at shooting due to superior base weapons, easily better in close combat, and more survivable via higher toughness and armor save. However, they have some significant downsides; especially when looking at fifth edition. Their upgraded weapons are almost pointless. The psycannon replaces the NFW, which is just a waste pointwise. The incinerator is fine, however if they are footslogging I doubt they'll get much use against smart opponents. The lack of a transport (aside from a land raider) is pretty harsh as well. They also compound the army wide problem of low model count.

Stormtroopers are far from amazing, but the ability to get more models, meltaguns, and a transport makes them appealing. However, they are certainly less survivable and pack less of a punch.

151 points would yield 4 PAGK's and one Justicar with targeter. 158 points would yield 7 stormtroopers with two meltas and an ex armored rhino with smoke launchers.

So my question to all with experience, which way do I go? 2 squads of PAGK? 2 Squads of stormtroopers? or a mix?

Why take storm troopers? they're horribly over priced. I would recommend you fill your min allowance with Grey Knights and then fill up On Infantry Platoons. After you've a platoon you can use it to get some extra heavy weapons (added to the infantry plattons) and best of all cheaper (& better) chimeras

Pre-Heresy Death Guard right?
Since it's a MEQ army, go with the MEQ...IMO.

What Tri said.

The 10 pt. ISTs are way overpriced. Taking an IG infantry platoon not only lets you get cheap troops into your GKs list, but also gives you much needed access to more firepower.

Tri wrote:Why take storm troopers? they're horribly over priced. I would recommend you fill your min allowance with Grey Knights and then fill up On Infantry Platoons. After you've a platoon you can use it to get some extra heavy weapons (added to the infantry plattons) and best of all cheaper (& better) chimeras

QFT!

Also, while you may think GK are overpriced, you are getting a MEQ equivalent model with a SB and a power weapon. Not to mention all their special abilities.

Ordinary Grey Knights don't have power weapons.

Ironhide wrote:

Tri wrote:Why take storm troopers? they're horribly over priced. I would recommend you fill your min allowance with Grey Knights and then fill up On Infantry Platoons. After you've a platoon you can use it to get some extra heavy weapons (added to the infantry plattons) and best of all cheaper (& better) chimeras

QFT!

Also, while you may think GK are overpriced, you are getting a MEQ equivalent model with a SB and a power weapon. Not to mention all their special abilities.

Fetterkey wrote:Ordinary Grey Knights don't have power weapons.

No ironhides half right they do have "A power weapon", since they've got the justicar. Every one else has a weapon that gives them +2 strength and a stormbolter

Grey Knights are more overpriced than Storm Troopers IMO. But since you are running Daemonhunters, you don't have much of a choice. PAGKs with incinerators in LRCs are a fairly good assault/scoring unit though.

I disagree that GKs are more overcosted than stormtroopers. While I agree that GKs are overcosted they are still a useful and flexable unit. STs in the DH codex don't really fulfill any role well, they are mediocre at best shooters and can not assault anything other than IG or firewarriors.

STs do something that GKs cannot:

/drumroll

Open up opposing LRs with MGx2. However, so do Sisters (at 1ppm more than STs) and allied IG.

I know this is not the army list area but this is the list i play tested last week.
3- land raiders
2-8 man squads with justicar and 1 psycannon each
1-7 man squad with justicar and incinerator
Brother captain with some upgrades.

its a 1750 list that actually worked out really well i used the land raiders shooting ability to pick off the big targets and than just opened up on whatever was left. When stuff got to close out came the PAGK and smoked them in close combat. Strength six attacks will do alot of damage even though i only had 4 power weapons on the table.

@ the OP

Psycannons aren't pointless, incinerators are almost pointless.


The greatest Strength of the GKs is shrouding. the average roll on 3D6 is 10 which gives an 30" average range to see you.

Psycannons are 36" range heavy. will wound most units on 2+ and is AP4 which dosent help against marines, but any other army will hate you.

Look up the Dakka article on GK tactics.

you can shoot them with psycannon fire at long range, take some casualities off his units while remaining safe yourself. once he realizes he can't shoot you reliably he will move towards you. he will then be in Stormbolter range and take even more casualities.

GK terminators are even better at this then PAGKs because they can move and shoot. always take a Psycannon on the brother captains and masters. BS5 + the fact True Grit only applies to PAGKs

One on One GKs are CC monsters, but the problem is there are very few of them and they aren't any more durable then normal space marines. WS5 helps you more then penalizing the enemy.

The way to play GKs and win is to Shoot, Shoot, whittle down and then finish off survivors in CC.

Vanilla Landraiders and Dakka Dreadnoughts while they don't benifit from shrouding, provide the nessary anti-tank GKs lack. cover is essential

Remember GKs are one of the few retinue armies left. our HQs can't be singled out in CC


My 2000 point list

Master with Psycannon, hammerhand(for anti-tank in CC) Icon of the Just, 4 terminator retinue with Psycannon

LR with psybolts and smoke launchers

10 PAGKs, 2 Psycannons, targeter

10 PAGKs, 2 Psycannons, targeter

10 PAGKs, 2 Incinerators, targeter(this squad provides a counter assault unit)

Dreadnought with Plasma cannon, DCCW and incinerator

Dreadnought with TL-lascannon and missile launcher

I don't know why people are saying Storm Troopers are overpriced. They're the same price as Imperial Guard Veterans with the Carapace Armor upgrade with pretty much the same stats. A 5 man squad with two Meltaguns is 70 points.

I would take two of the above ST Melta squads, an IG infantry platoon with Chimeras (let the Storm Troopers ride in them), and Sisters of Battle if you want Power Armor. Add GK Terminators and Land Raiders and there you go.

Then again, I like the idea of no Power Armor (only Terminator Armor) for Grey Knights.

They say the IST is overpriced more because their transport is overpriced. The ist by himself I think is rather decently priced, they can carry 2 special weapons for 70 points, like you said. His transport however, is a 3rd edition transport, which is not costed like 5th edition ones. 55 points gets you a rhino with extra armor and that is all no searchlight, no smoke, no stormbolter. Current imperial guard chimeras cost as much, and carry two guns on AV12 front armor.

Use allied transports for your IST, simple.

I have seen some nice GK lists that use multiple LRs to drive around some PAGKs and some GKTs, with ISTs in a LR for scoring/fire support. At 1500 pts I don't know how well it would work, but you could probably field 3 LRs.
Alternately, you could run IG with GK allies. If memory serves, you could get 1 HQ (GM with Ret and LR) 1 Elite (GKT w/LR) and 2 Troops (2xPAGK) to add to your HQ and 2 troops from IG.

Did I miss any acronyms?

I recommend Stormtroopers. For just 70 points, you get 5 men with 2 melta (or two plasma).

I don't play DH so I'm just theorizing, but I think it's be a good idea to take two allied platoons of Guard, use them as your gunline, and use the PCS' as quad-melta taxis. Buy the normal infantry two chimeras and let the Stormtroopers take those as their rides with a pair of plasma guns each.

Assuming you take AC/GL Guard, that's 760 points for:

40 AC/GL Guard
2 PCS meltataxis
2 stormtrooper plasma taxis

And potentially 8 scoring units.

Then support that infantry core with Grey Knight Terminators and whatever else you like.

A few corrections. IST cannot ride in any DH Land Raider, as DH vehicles are either truly dedicated (if bought as part of an Inquisitor's retinue) or Grey Knight only (per the GK LR and LRC codex entries). IST are left with 50pt Rhinos or 70pt Chimera as their only DH vehicle choices. Also, GK LR's are not dedicated, they take up Heavy Support slots.

Of the two armies mentioned above, I've run the tri-Raider list above to good effect vs armies not prepared to take on AV14 vehicles. Versus the new Nids, its an awesome army to field.

The second army mentioned has merit, but the LR becomes such a huge fire magnet that I'm personally hesitant to use it. Other have had good luck with it, but its not a configuration I can endorse.

A third option is the take 2 GK LRC's, 2 GKT squads (1 HQ, 1 Elite) and 2-3 IST w/ Meltas in Rhinos. This give you a fast, hard hitting strike force that uses the best DH have to offer. If you have the points and models, swap out one the IST units for an Inquisitor w/ 2 Mystics for some DS counter capability.

If you go Guard instead of IST, it's almost better to go IG for the army and ally in GKT rathe than DH with Inducted Guard. IG have more options that you can use with your GKT. The only reason the go DH with Guard is to use those GK Land Raiders and/or Dreadnoughts.

SJ

Psycannons are very handy for having a squad at the back as they are about the best range you are going to get out of a GK army other than warrior henchmen and LR's.

BTW @ Grey Templar I agree with everything you say there and what an awesome list!!

Thanks Phantom. It shows it is possable to have 35 models in a normal size game.


I don't know why anyone wishes to have Inquisitors. they are crutches for DH players. GMs can take a Hood and all our infantry units have hoods against powers targeting them.

Psychic heavy armys hate Pure GK lists because they simply can't do anything with their powers. Nids trying to Psychic scream your troops and then finding out it has no effect what so ever