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Just wondering what you'd go for... I am going to run a bike captain..cause they're cool and I like the idea of a troop choice bike squad.

On the surface the bike captain seems to hav ethe advantage...relic blade vs. instand death blade. Each have 3 attacks so you need at least 2 turns to get the 6 for insta-deathy blade.

The nice thing about khan....Khhhaaaaaaaaaannnn! Sorry, my Shatner moment....is that he can allow ...uhhh...everyone? to outflank. That is particularly cool for non-podding sternguard (which I intend to use) but doesn't do much for the rest of my army.

Any thoughts?

ender502

Khan has some advantags you aren't noticing.

1. He has furious charge and gives it to his unit
2. He is fleet on a bike (while this may or may not be good its still a difference)

Khan I think is best used for his furious charge but for that you don't even need to be on a bike you could put him with termies if you wanted.

That being said Shike + Khan = awesome.

Hmmm, maybe do some searches on biker posts/tactics.
I'm sure we(I) have gone over this already...not to the point of beating a dead horse, but it feels close enough
________________________
I generally go with a Captain.
Why?
Keeping Combat Tactics.
Access to Relic Blade and Storm Shield.
Also cheaper.

Why is Khan good:
#1 reason: hit and run.
#2 reason: furious Charge.
#3-6: Whatever.
#7 reason: Outflank.

Generally Khan shows up if you have 1 or 2 of the 2 following units:
Ass Termies in a dedicated LR varient.
Or
Blinged out command squad on bikes.

In general, Outflank is not the reason you go for Khan, sometimes it doesn't even factor into the reason why people use him.

His fleeting/running bike is in most cases useless.
____________________

All-purpose list generally would favor the Captain.
A One-trick-pony list would center around Khan.

Yeah, I can see some nasty uses for an outflanking SM army. They can bring a ridiculous amount of fire to bear.... Well, i probably have the models for both so....

I am not going for a pimped command squad...the fleeting bike i scool but it only effects him. Is that correct? I really have no great desire to send a S4 power wileding captain anywwhere by himself.

ender502

If I wanted to do an outflanking landraider army, I'd take Khan, but not on a bike.

If you want to run a bike army, combat tactics is too important to give up, so a bike captain is better, and with relic blade, storm shield, and artificer armor is pretty ridiculously resilient, especially against non-MEQ armies that don't have hidden fists laying around everywhere.

Effectively he's Str 5 as he should be charging and not charged on his turn .

But yea, only he gets to run/fleet....which is why dumplingman mentioned Shrike+Khan,... get some infiltrating assault marines with Khan attached...everything infiltrates, moves 12" and fleets!

But again, a one-trick-pony.

Sanctjud wrote:
But again, a one-trick-pony.

Yeah, but a good trick. Ya know..point for point I think Shrike might have the best ability to confer. Fleet is pretty nasty if it is army wide.

ender502

Yea, but not for a bike heavy army.
And most of the SM army is not combat oriented... you only have less than a handful of serious combat units that will need fleet.

Remember, Bikes may get fleet, but they cannot run...so that's moot.

Or did you think you could run bikes , too bad you can't.

Sanctjud wrote:Yea, but not for a bike heavy army.
And most of the SM army is not combat oriented... you only have less than a handful of serious combat units that will need fleet.

Remember, Bikes may get fleet, but they cannot run...so that's moot.

Or did you think you could run bikes , too bad you can't.

No, I wasn't thinking about bikes. Actually, I was wondering about what you could do with fleeting Tacs...Or Scouts. Fun stuff.

ender502 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Yea, but not for a bike heavy army.
And most of the SM army is not combat oriented... you only have less than a handful of serious combat units that will need fleet.

Remember, Bikes may get fleet, but they cannot run...so that's moot.

Or did you think you could run bikes , too bad you can't.

No, I wasn't thinking about bikes. Actually, I was wondering about what you could do with fleeting Tacs...Or Scouts. Fun stuff.

What fleeting tacs and scouts can do: get to CC faster to die horrible deaths.

For a unit that doesn't really want to get to CC, fleet is no better than running.

Fleeting CC terms on the other hand, or fleeting assault squads, are a different story.

Fleet Tac: ... I'm not really thrilled.
They are a shooting unit and really have no use for it.

Fleeting Scouts: meh. Only good for infiltrating combat scouts, but they lose steam real fast.

Prob. the most notable use is with the Assault Terminators.... infiltrated or in a ride.

Look at it this way:
The unit entries of the SM Codex:

-Command Squad : without bikes these guys are really counter attackers and really have no 'need' for it.
-Honor Squad : nice, but few use these seriously.
-Ass Termies : Over 9000
-Tac Termies : Shooty unit, so meh.
-Sternguard : Shooty unit, so meh.
-LoTD : Don't get it.
-Dreads : Don't get it.
-Iron : Don't get it.
-VEnDread : Don't get it.
-Tacticals : Shooty unit, so meh.
-Shooty Scouts: Shooty unit, so meh.
-Combat Scouts : decent.
-Assault Marines : decent, but they themselves are meh.
-Scout Bikes : Don't get it.
-Attack Bikes : Don't get it.
-Land Speeders : Don't get it.
-Vanguard : meh... you can't fleet when Heroic Intervention and they themselves are so expensive it hurts the rest of the army, so, nice for a combat unit, but rare to see these guys used seriously
-Vindi, TFC, WW, Pred, LR(R)(C), devs... no, meh, no, no, no, meh.

So...out of 25 unit entries above, there are only 6 units that are comfortable in combat. Of those 6 units, 4 are economical in a combat role (Command Squad, Ass Termies, Combat Scouts, Assault Marines).
Of these 4, you’ll see 2 used frequently in combination with Shrike (Assault Marines and Ass termies).

As I said, less than a handful of units that really benefit from Fleet.
So having army wide fleet is IMO, not a great benefit when 21/25 of the unit entries don’t benefit or are not economical enough.

That’s how I see it…but I’m a guy that looks at things half empty.

Outflanking is not as hot for a bike army as it appears at first.

The standard board is 4' * 6'. Outflanking lets you come in from either the left or the right short board edge.
If you have a squad that rolls badly and comes on the wrong side of the board edge, they will need to spend 2 turns turbo-boosting to get back to the right board edge. In a 5-7 turn game, thats a significant portion of the time.

The other problem with outflanking bikes is that a bike army needs to be a surgical instrument. Your advantage lies in the ability to bring your entire army to bear on a small portion of your opponents forces. Outflanking splits your army up.

In summary, a regular bike captain is a much better bang for your buck.

Yea.
Regular reserves is already powerful (and free).
Hell there is a much larger area of inflence.

Regular reserves would get you (assuming 12" move and max melta range or double tap) an area of 12 ft squared.
While Outflank would only get you at total of 16 ft squard but only 8 ft squared would be anything useful from the outflank, where the 'surgical strike' phrase comes in.

Outflanking would be best for Attack Bike squadrons with Multi-meltas...otherwise, nothing else benefits that greatly from it...IMO.

I have 9 attack bikes w/ multimeltas. Kinda what I was thinking.

I guess I am kind of a movement geek. The more a unit CAN move the happier I am. Ofcourse, it's always better to charge than get charged. If I can get an extra inch of movement that allows me to get a charge rather than be charged? I think that's awesone!

Assault marines w/ a minimum charge/movement of 19"? Awesome! Fast assault termies? Awesome. Even a humble tac squad can hold up an assault unit if it gets the charge off. Charge into a mob of boyz. You'll probably survive turn 1 (especially if your sergeant has apower weapon, break on turn 2? Okay, now that any other units have moved away OR you've moved a counter charge unit into place.

No, I can see some fun uses for fleeting with marines..at least some fun possibilities.

ender502

The fact that you think a power weapon significantly increases a tactical squads chance against a mob of boyz belies your tactical acumen.

willydstyle wrote:The fact that you think a power weapon significantly increases a tactical squads chance against a mob of boyz belies your tactical acumen.

You're right. A power weapon won't help..at all. Not one bit. Nor will getting the charge instead of being charged.

The point of charging the boyz (as in the example) isn't to win but to hold them up long enough to allow counter charges to occur or move vulnerable units.

ender502

Getting the charge will help, you're correct. A power weapon will not, at least not 15 points worth of help. Against ork boyz it is next to worthless.

I'm not saying that tactical marines should never assault if it is to your advantage.

I'm saying that it's not often enough to your advantage that going out of your way to make tactical squads fleet is worth much investment.

10 tac marines assault 30 boyz. We'll be nice and say there's no claw nob, but we'll be mean and say they're sluggas.

No pistol shots, because you're running to get in range.

22 attacks, 11 hits, 5.5 wounds, 1 save, means 4-5 dead orks, on average. We'll be nice to the marines (they'll need it!) and say it's 5 dead orks.

25 orks attack at I2 with 100 attacks. 50 of those hit. 17 of those wound, and you're looking at 6 dead marines, with a decent chance of losing your sergeant (goodbye LD9) or other important models.

The best result here is that you pass your morale check (at LD 8 or 7) and then get wiped out in your opponent's turn, but honestly just shooting them with bolters and a flamer would have killed more, and your unit would have died on his turn anyways.

willydstyle wrote:
The best result here is that you pass your morale check (at LD 8 or 7) and then get wiped out in your opponent's turn, but honestly just shooting them with bolters and a flamer would have killed more, and your unit would have died on his turn anyways.

Sometimes shooting IS the best answer and sometimes it is not. The point is that in one scenario you have the option of charging while in the other you do not. More options = the win! in my book.

The big difference in your example of the marines charging OR being charged is all about WHERE they die. Will they die 12" (ork move and charge) closer to their own side of the board? Will they die in front of rather than on an objective?

A tac squad is NOT going to beat a mob of 30 orks...not at all. But they can cause trouble. They can upset the orks plans. They can slow them down. Just about anything that makes your opponent say..."well that isn't helpful to me at all" is probably a good thing.

ender502

Though, it's not 'more options'.
It's different options.
You don't get more. You gave up Combat Tactics (a viable option to have) for Fleet (a 'different' option).

But instead of special rule to try and keep the Tacticals out of combat, you have one now that throws the shooting squad into it...

The oppurtunity cost is Not Double tapping or not using pistols on the way in.
Which ends up reducing their overall damage output... and having them locked in combat.

These are not ideal situations even if it was an ideal situation for you to charge in, they are much better at shooting.

The big difference in your example of the marines charging OR being charged is all about WHERE they die. Will they die 12" (ork move and charge) closer to their own side of the board? Will they die in front of rather than on an objective?

That only comes into play Turn 5, where you are gambling that the game ends exactly on Turn 5.

Also, you are now not holding your own objective and give the chance for the orks to kill/break the SM and give them a D6 consolidate closer to the objective.

Anyway... /shrug, I would suggest focus on strengthening what works best with Fleet.

Sanctjud wrote:Though, it's not 'more options'.
It's different options. You don't get more. You gave up Combat Tactics (a viable option to have) for Fleet (a 'different' option).

That is a good point. Perhaps it's just an option I like better.

Sanctjud wrote:
But instead of special rule to try and keep the Tacticals out of combat, you have one now that throws the shooting squad into it...

A rule that CAN allow you to get into a combat...it isn't mandatory.

Sanctjud wrote:
The oppurtunity cost is Not Double tapping or not using pistols on the way in.
Which ends up reducing their overall damage output... and having them locked in combat.
These are not ideal situations even if it was an ideal situation for you to charge in, they are much better at shooting.

Nor is being charged by a large group of nasty HTH types. The need to throw in an entire squad into an assault is probably rare and certainly not ideal. But when the situation calls for it...i'd lik eto be able to do so. Also, fleet/squads allows you to more carefully tailor your tac squads. Now there is a reason for a sergeant to hae a power weapon. You can have a 5 man las/plas squad as a fire base while your hittier (that is relative of course) element moves forward...or positions to act as a speed bump or countercharge.

Sanctjud wrote: Also, you are now not holding your own objective and give the chance for the orks to kill/break the SM and give them a D6 consolidate closer to the objective.

Assuming the SM player goes first...say on turn 3. move,fleet, charge..and survives (that is an IF) then the ork turn3 movement phase and assault are spent not moving. Will I trade a 12"move/charge for a d6" consolidation? If the point is to slow them down? Yes.

Now the real point is to get the charge off when the opponent is over 12" away. That's really the only time fleet becomes useful. There are 2 scenarios...the enemy can move/chage 12". Or the enemy can move/charge more than 12" (jetpacks, bikes, fleet, hormies..whatever). If the opponent is a 12" then I would assume you don't charge. Why would you? Assuming they are 14" out they will have to move for a turn and then sit and then charge in the next turn. So need to fleet charge. But what if they are 14" out and can move/charge mor ethan 12"? Then fleet/charge would make sense if you are trying to slow them down.

Sanctjud wrote: Anyway... /shrug, I would suggest focus on strengthening what works best with Fleet.

A better way to think about it is how does fleet strengthen each unit and how do then use them all most efficiently.

ender502

/shrug a difference in point of view.
I guess the only thing left is for you to use it in a game and show us.

Hmm as to the 'slow them down.' It's not just limiting them to a D6" consol.
THey have reaction moves when charged and get piile in moves, they get closer Inch by Inch at an alarmign rate if the mob is large enough and your marines not dying 'on time'.

is probably rare and certainly not ideal. But when thesituation calls for it...

Which is sort of our point.
If the situation calls for you to charge a tactical squad >12" away it means they are unsupported and trying to do a job that really isn't theirs.
Again, that's how I see tacticals, flexible and shooty, a support unit that needs support. The SM list is not supposed to have each unit acting independantly.

Sanctjud wrote:/shrug a difference in point of view.
I guess the only thing left is for you to use it in a game and show us.

Hmm as to the 'slow them down.' It's not just limiting them to a D6" consol.
THey have reaction moves when charged and get piile in moves, they get closer Inch by Inch at an alarmign rate if the mob is large enough and your marines not dying 'on time'.

is probably rare and certainly not ideal. But when thesituation calls for it...

Which is sort of our point.
If the situation calls for you to charge a tactical squad >12" away it means they are unsupported and trying to do a job that really isn't theirs.
Again, that's how I see tacticals, flexible and shooty, a support unit that needs support. The SM list is not supposed to have each unit acting independantly.

How flexible is a shooty unit if all it can do is shoot and sit there? Your idea of flexible and mine are vastly different. The way I see tacs, the best job for them is to sit on objectives...well at least for half of them sit there and fire a heavy. The other half moves forward to deflect or attack units before they get too close to the objective. The tac squad is flexible because it can do multiple jobs..none of them as well as specialists but still they can make a fight of it. That's why they're tacticals... they can do a bit of everything.

I will give a shrike list a try though. I think it would be fun to see what you can do with it and how an opponent would react to fast tacs. For the immediate I am focusing on bikes. 9 bikes and 6 attack bikes make for some fast and shooty good times. I'll post that list later.

I appreciate the discussion BTW. You have really helped crystalize some of my thoughts on how to use fast tacs...

ender502