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My theory is the worse the conditions of your country, the more patriotic the people of said country will be.

This theory is sparked by things like Hofestede's five forces and the like. But mostly from anecdotal experience.

I spent three months in Nicaragua, and the people there who are extremely poor were very patriotic. Lets say a 5 on the Shaman scale.

Then I compared it to the US. Where there is also lots of poverty. (the thread on Baltimore made it sound like Necromunda haha) Yanks in general from those I have met and those I have seen on TV seem pretty patriotic. Lets say a 4 on the Shaman scale.

Then I compare these to the UK. The Brits don't seem that Patriotic to me. Except for sport. 2 on the Shaman scale.

Finally I compare it to my home country Australia. Now I have seen plenty of southern cross tattoos, and lots of people I know are pretty patriotic so I give them a 3 on the Shaman scale.

So I think it comes down to this, if life is really tough and you have to band together to survive it promotes a sense of community and in turn patriotism. In the other extreme is life is far easier and your free to be and survive as an individual then you're less patriotic or might even reject the idea entirely.

What do you think dakka?

Meh perhaps its the case, if that my country(Norway) comes out very badly I suppose

Many Brits aren't OVERTLY patriotic. I think it's due to our culture, and national character - we brits aren't the most demonstrative bunch, we don't like to brag or boast. When you ask a Brit 'how are you doing?', the most likely answer you'll hear is often 'not bad'. Our self deprecating nature leads us to downplay our acheivements - we often grumble about our country, and are prone to criticising it.

But if anyone else does?

Well, you'll find out how patriotic we are.

Rule Britannia.

I think if the gak hits the fan for whoever's country, you'll find a lot more patriots than you think you would.

I don't think it's a simple "poverty = patriotism" equation. But it could very well have an effect.

Hey mate in a strange coincidence, i was actually saying this a few nights ago, it was a hypothesis of mine.

We watched this trashy as feth reality TV show called "Britains hardest towns" primarily because there is a fethed up woolyback place near us called Skinningrove (outside of Middlesbrough) that we have always called "Land of the dong" because it seems to be full of inbreds and mountain men with mental problems....

Anyway.. cut a long story short, while watching it when they went to all these rough as feth places around the UK, i noticed a trend, in that all of the thuggish illiterate yobs seemed to have one thing in common, they were all super patriotic.

Bear in mind, these are the absolute worst towns in the whole country, and there were a few places in Scotland, Wales and England.

ALL of the people had tattoos of flags on their bodies, or crap slogans like "Scotland forever" or "English by the Grace of God" or WELSH AND PROUD and other such nonsense. National Football shirts, flags hanging all over the place, uniformly in Scotland/Wales/England.

I concur with you entirely. I think that poor people are poorly educated and for whatever reason they fething LOVE going on about how much they love their country and such. I have noticed it often when i travelled as well.

Maybe i am being arrogant, as i believe i am above average intelligence and i have always thought that Patriotism, as Oscar Wilde said, was the "virtue" of the viscious. I have never liked the whole notion of it, and i genuinelly try to have some healthy disdain for my nation. I have never thought it was a good thing, primarily because of my military service. When people would assume i joined because i was a "patiot" it always left a bad taste in my mouth.

I always noticed, in Northern Ireland for example, the "Patriots" were willing to kill people because of their belief in a United Ireland. Im sure well educated critically thinking people would realise it is an extremely sensitive and difficult issue, rather than resort to murder. I bet all of the BNP and the KKK consider themselves "Patriots" as well. Wanting to keep "their" country free of the "verminous" foreign types.

To me, a Patriot generally seems to be someone that has scorn or hatred for people from other countries, as opposed to merely a healthy love of their own.

How do you define poverty? The US is not full of poverty compared to the rest of the world. There may be people who are poorer then other Americans, but even some of the US' poorest live better then most people in the World. I don't buy this theory. It all comes down to cultural values. From day one the USA has had a very independent and patriotic streak. Things like that are passed on from generation to generation. I am a Patriot, but I work hard for what I have, and that is plenty. It isn't founded in my socio-economic status, it is founded in my love for the idea of America, and the physical beauty it has.

Poverty can be defined in a number of ways.

Here are the poverty thresholds used in the US Census in 2008.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/threshld/thresh08.html

The European Union uses a measure of a household with under 60% of the median income of the nation they reside in. This means as top-level workers increase their salaries, the median is pushed up and more people at the bottom end fall into theoretical poverty without their financial situation changing.

This measure is used in Europe because social cohesion is regarded as an important goal and is frustrated by a widening gap between rich and poor.

The UN has an absolute poverty measure of a personal income under $1 a day.

Albatross wrote:Many Brits aren't OVERTLY patriotic. I think it's due to our culture, and national character - we brits aren't the most demonstrative bunch, we don't like to brag or boast. When you ask a Brit 'how are you doing?', the most likely answer you'll hear is often 'not bad'. Our self deprecating nature leads us to downplay our acheivements - we often grumble about our country, and are prone to criticising it.

But if anyone else does?

Well, you'll find out how patriotic we are.

Rule Britannia.

Well said that man!

I think factors that must be taken into account also include faith in the governing system, and the sensibilities of the countrymen (sense of humour, irony, self-awareness etc.)

There's a fairly definitive correlation between low socioeconomic status and an attachment to abstract principles; whether that principle is nationality, cultural heritage, or religion doesn't really seem to matter.

As far as explaining that correlation goes:

1) People of lower income tend to be less well educated. Education breeds familiarity with other cultures in a way which generally makes one less apt to identify as strongly with one's own. Though this can often be mitigated by a particularly strong initial opinion. Many people will refuse to learn, or accept a thing because it contradicts an initial stance too strongly.

2) People of lower income often lead more stressful lives; particularly if they desire to earn more. This can lead to a general intolerance with respect to difference.

In any case, its not the lack of income itself which makes people into patriots, zealots, etc. Its the factors which are otherwise attached to the lack of income.

Albatross wrote:Many Brits aren't OVERTLY patriotic. I think it's due to our culture, and national character - we brits aren't the most demonstrative bunch, we don't like to brag or boast. When you ask a Brit 'how are you doing?', the most likely answer you'll hear is often 'not bad'. Our self deprecating nature leads us to downplay our acheivements - we often grumble about our country, and are prone to criticising it.

But if anyone else does?

Well, you'll find out how patriotic we are.

Rule Britannia.

I agree with him

Shaman does make sence.

I hear nothing but how Canada is in the deep end of recession on the news. And see lot's of proud Canadians.

Ah this is great lots of varied replies.

First Mattyrm: I think we are totally on the same wave length. Luckily Australians mostly get the southern cross rather then slogans.. Aussie aussie aussie Oi oi oi!.. That would be a funny tattoo to have though.

Albatross: I guess brits arent a two on the shaman scale.. bumped to 3 in my head now. Also Ive only met brits who have left the rainy island..

JEB stuart & EF: Yeah its probably not as neat as I put it.. cultural values etc have impact.. But I still think its striking. Also My unscientific mind defines poverty as slums, favelas and what have you.

Killkrazy: I actual think the european method you posted has merit. Because as the incomes rise so do the prices so if your industry's wage income doesn't rise comparatively you do get poorer IMO.

Dogma: What you say makes sense.

Shadowbrand: I forgot canada.. but that is because the USA is the Space marines of the world. Everything is compared to it. Norway wasnt included cause I never met more then one Norwegian.

Ironically its Australia Day tomorrow and the flags are already out in force. But remember you cant spell Patriotism without RIOT.

I was discussing this with my missus (American) and she had an interesting idea. I told her i thought that generally poor people were more bigoted with regards to other nations and customs and such, and as a direct result of this more patriotic, and she said one good reason might be because poor people are less likely to travel?

I think that has merit too.. i mean, im sure in some of the backwards places in the valleys in Wales where they never ever leave they might think English people eat babies, and they wont ever meet one to find out differently!

On that same note, alot of Scottish guys in my regiment told me that they were raised to have a dislike for "The English" en-masse, and it was only when they moved south and worked with alot of us (85% of the RM is English) that they realised that we are all the same and we formed a real bond. Many of the Scots in the RM also used to tell me that if they ever got independence they would rather renounce their Scottish citizenship and stay in the Royal Marines than be forced to join one of the Scottish Army Regiments, so i think it may well be a factor. If you never spend any time around people from otehr countries, then how are you going to know what they are like?

For the record, i travelled extensively and worked with soldiers from about 40 countries during my ten years service and i firmly believe it is because of this that i do genuinelly feel like i can rub along with almost anyone. I even liked most of the French soldiers i met in Kabul, and you know how the average Englishman stereotypes them!

Yeah i can get along with anyone...

Well....

Except maybe people from Newcastle.