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Can an independent character that grants a unit infiltrate, infiltrate with that unit and then leave it during the first movement phase?

For example, Shrike infiltrates with 10 assault termies, Shrike targets a unit 18 inches away, and the termies charge a unit 12 inches away.

I found nothing to show this was illegal, but I felt that i should submit the question to the great minds of Dakka before using this strategy again.

Your example is illegal, but not in the way you are thinking.

It is perfectly legal for a character to leave during the first movement phase, although he will still have to move at the speed of the slowest model if he is faster than the unit. This means Shrike could not have charged a unit 18'' away except by running.

thebetter1 wrote:Your example is illegal, but not in the way you are thinking.

It is perfectly legal for a character to leave during the first movement phase, although he will still have to move at the speed of the slowest model if he is faster than the unit. This means Shrike could not have charged a unit 18'' away except by running.

Could you please point me to the page on which that is on? I know that while he is with the unit, he must move at the same speed as the terminators, but he would no longer be a part of the unit correct? Merely in coherency with it.

I'm sorry if i sound argumentative, i don't mean to be, just trying to fully understand the rule.

He is deployed with the unit and is a part of that unit until the *end* of the movement phase - that is when you check if a unit and IC are attached. So until that point Shrike *cannot* use his Jump pack, as he is restricted by the terminators move.

However he does get to run and assault due to Shrikes rules. The wrongness of fleeting terminators will be discussed later....

And, before Gwar arrives - all the above assumes a HouseRule to make Shrike infiltrating witha unit that does ntot have infiltrate actually work. By the letter of the rules Shrike can only Outflank with a unit that does not have Infiltrate "naturally"

Shrike78 wrote: I know that while he is with the unit, he must move at the same speed as the terminators, but he would no longer be a part of the unit correct? Merely in coherency with it.

If he's in coherency with them, he's part of the unit.

As per the IC rules for joining and leaving units, on the turn in which you want him to leave the unit, he leaves the unit by moving out of coherency. The assumption that I believe thebetter1 is working on is that this happens during the unit's movement. You 'activate' the unit, at which point the IC moves one way and the unit moves another.

Alternatively, it can be argued that the inference from the first bullet point in the IC rules is that an IC's joined status is determined at the end of the phase. So even if you move him separately to the unit, rather than assuming that the IC's and unit's movement are done at the same time as above, he is still technically a part of the unit until the end of the phase.

Either way, in that turn the IC would be bound by the rule forcing everybody in the unit to move at the pace of the slowest... he hasn't actually left the unit until the end of the movement phase.



Having said that, I would be curious as to how many people actually play that way. I suspect (it hasn't come up in my own games so far) that most would play it that you simply 'activate' the IC and move him away from the unit, with him immediately counting as a separate unit and so able to move at his own pace.



(Of course, this is assuming that you are allowing Shrike to infiltrate with a unit in the first place, which isn't technically allowed by the RAW, but is fairly clearly RAI.)

nosferatu1001 wrote:He is deployed with the unit and is a part of that unit until the *end* of the movement phase - that is when you check if a unit and IC are attached. So until that point Shrike *cannot* use his Jump pack, as he is restricted by the terminators move."

Where do you get any of this? If the moves away before the terminators he is free to use his jump pack, as he is now a unit of one. The terminators use their normal movement. There is no statement of time when he is or is not with the unit. Coherency is the only factor that makes him part of it, and it is only checked at the end of the units movement.

I am ignoring the fact he has infiltrated with a non-infiltrating unit.

InquisitorFabius wrote: If the moves away before the terminators he is free to use his jump pack, as he is now a unit of one.

That's the point, though... he doesn't move before the terminators. The unit consisting of Shrike and the Terminators moves... and in order to leave the unit, Shrike moves out of coherency.

Whilst the IC rules are perhaps not as detailed as they should be, there is nothing in the rules that suggests that you can choose to move only part of a unit, which is what would be required in order to move the IC separately to the unit to which he is joined.

Guys, this is a moot point. You cannot Infiltrate a unit of Terminators with Shrike anyway.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Where do you get any of this? If the moves away before the terminators he is free to use his jump pack, as he is now a unit of one. The terminators use their normal movement. There is no statement of time when he is or is not with the unit. Coherency is the only factor that makes him part of it, and it is only checked at the end of the units movement.

He is not a unit of one, he is a part of the unit UNTIL the end of the movement phase - this is the only point at which you check unit ownership. So you know he is part of the unit at the start of the turn (IC deployment tells you this) and therefore, until the end of the turn, he is STILL a part of the unit.

He is therefore bound by the movement speed of the slowest model, i.e. cannot use his jump pack.

Gwar! wrote:Guys, this is a moot point. You cannot Infiltrate a unit of Terminators with Shrike anyway.

How about for the sake of discussion we either (like the vast majority of players) assume or pretend he can, or pretend the question was about a generic IC who can infiltrate with a unit...?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:He is not a unit of one, he is a part of the unit UNTIL the end of the movement phase - this is the only point at which you check unit ownership.

Whilst I'm arguing for the same outcome, I'm not entirely convinced of this part.

The IC rules say to check coherency at the end of the phase for IC's joining a unit. They don't say the same about leaving... just that the IC leaves the unit by moving out of coherency.

So as far as I can see, he's a part of the unit until the end of his and the unit's movement (whether they move or not). Not specifically to the end of the phase.

I'm not sure I agree with the interpretation of the IC rules people have posted here.

nosferatu1001 and other are stating that you check at the end of the movement phase to determine if the IC is part of a unit. I would point out that the first bullet point, which they are referring to, only concerns charaters joining a unit, it makes no reference to charaters leaving a unit.

The only bullet point dealing with charaters leaving a unit is point 4, which states "An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it." This would indicate that the IC is part of the unit until he moves more that 2" away, and as he is staring his movement as part of the unit he is bound by the Termies' slower pace. Thus the effect would be the same, Shrike still cannot use his Jump pack.

This leads to the problem, however, that bullet point 3 states that while an IC "is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules", thus if you want to go RAW, a character can NEVER leave a unit as he begins his move as part of the unit and cannot break coherency.

I personally would let my opponent break away and use his jetpack (its not like Shrike is hanging around saying farewells, he has spotted a target and is heading over there ASAP), but as usual it looks like a "discuss it and/or roll a dice" solution again.

I have noticed people stating that you can't use Shrike to infiltrate Termies. Would anyone care to explain why? Or point me to the relevent post? I can't see the problem with it myself.

SMforbreakfast wrote:I have noticed people stating that you can't use Shrike to infiltrate Termies. Would anyone care to explain why? Or point me to the relevent post? I can't see the problem with it myself.

In order to join the a unit pre game he must deploy within coherency with them. As a unit without the Infiltrate USR (obviously) do not have the Infiltrate USR, the only way this can be done is if he joins them before infiltrators are deployed, at which point they are already deployed and cannot then Infiltrate. He can, of course, opt to join them in reserve, where he confers the ability for the unit to arrive via Outflank.

Ah, thanks Gwar. Correct as usual

insaniak wrote:That's the point, though... he doesn't move before the terminators. The unit consisting of Shrike and the Terminators moves... and in order to leave the unit, Shrike moves out of coherency.

If that's the case how can you ever satisfy bulletpoint 4

"If an Independent Character moves and joins or leaves a unit that did not move, the character counts as having moved in the ensuing shooting phase, but the unit does not."

you are saying that the "leaves" part of this rule is entirely pointless because an IC can't leave a unit without the unit having moved?

Drunkspleen wrote:you are saying that the "leaves" part of this rule is entirely pointless because an IC can't leave a unit without the unit having moved?

The point of the bullet point you quoted is to allow the unit to count as not having moved, since without it they would have moved, because the IC did.

It's not a matter of 'satisfying' that bullet. It provides a specific exception to the way the rules would otherwise work.

But the bullet point says they only "count as not moving" in the event that he joins or leaves them and they don't move, but you are saying any time the IC leaves them, they must be moving, and therefore, they may never "count as not moving" when the IC leaves the unit.

Except that they count as moving until you find out the IC has left, at which point they dont count as moving....

Drunkspleen wrote:But the bullet point says they only "count as not moving" in the event that he joins or leaves them and they don't move, but you are saying any time the IC leaves them, they must be moving, and therefore, they may never "count as not moving" when the IC leaves the unit.

You're making it much more complicated than it actually is.

In normal situations if you move one model in the unit, the entire unit counts as having moved.
If that one model is an IC and he moves out of coherency with the unit, the rest of the unit would count as having moved under the normal rules, but that bullet point in the IC rules says that in this particular situation that doesn't apply.

but the only way to qualify to count as haivng not moved is to not move when the IC leaves, which you are saying is impossible?

I'm not saying any such thing.

The unit moves. You can choose, as always, which models within the unit move.

and because the unit moved, they no longer qualify as a unit which has not moved when an IC chooses to detach

Except the IC is the only one that counts as moving, as the bullet points go back and changes the "unit moved" status back to "unit not moved"

Drunkspleen wrote:and because the unit moved, they no longer qualify as a unit which has not moved when an IC chooses to detach

They count as not having moved because the IC rules say they count as not having moved.


To break it down:

You have an infantry unit that includes an IC.
You choose to move that unit. To do so, you move any of the models that you wish to move. All models are restricted to the speed of the slowest model.
So, you move the IC 6". Ordinarily, the rest of the unit would be required to maintain coherency. However, the IC rules allow the IC to leave the unit by moving out of coherency with them.
You finish that unit's movement, as you don't wish to move any of the other models. The IC has now left the unit, as he has moved out of coherency with them.
At the time that the unit 'moved', the IC was a part of the unit. Ordinarily, the entire unit would count as having moved, as a model that was a part of the unit moved. However, the IC rules state that if only the IC moves, and he leaves the unit, the unit does not count as having moved.
So the unit has completed its movement, but has not actually moved.

There are no conflicting rules here. As always, the rule dealing with that specific situation takes precedence over the normal (and more general) rules.