Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Two quick questions.

If I have infantry embarked in a Fast, Skimmer vehicle, (i.e. Land Speeder Storm) and it moves 6 inches, can the infantry fire as if they haven't moved, since their transport can?

If I have Telion in a squad that has Camo Cloaks, do I need to buy him one as well? He already has the stealth USR.

regarding the first question, being a fast transport has no bearing on the transported unit's ability to fire, so if the vehicle remains still they can fire as though they were stationary, if the vehicle moves up to 6" they can fire as though moving, and if the vehicle moves more than 6" they cannot fire.

Camo cloaks are not bought per model, but rather, the whole squad buys them at a set point cost per model, as Telion is a model in the unit, yes you must include him in the count when determining the cost.

Drunkspleen wrote:Camo cloaks are not bought per model, but rather, the whole squad buys them at a set point cost per model, as Telion is a model in the unit, yes you must include him in the count when determining the cost.

Eh, no. You buy camo cloaks on a per model basis. So unless you get into the Tellion granting stealth to his squad argument then you only need to buy them for the other scouts. Not Tellion.

Camo cloaks must be bought for the whole unit, there's no option to buy cloaks for only some of the unit.

Aya wrote:Eh, no. You buy camo cloaks on a per model basis. So unless you get into the Tellion granting stealth to his squad argument then you only need to buy them for the other scouts. Not Tellion.

Eh, no. You don't.

The codex says quite clearly:

"The squad may have camo cloaks........ +X pts per model"

Either the squad has camo cloaks, or the squad does not have camo cloaks, there's no option for buying half the squad camo cloaks.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Aya wrote:Eh, no. You buy camo cloaks on a per model basis. So unless you get into the Tellion granting stealth to his squad argument then you only need to buy them for the other scouts. Not Tellion.

Eh, no. You don't.

The codex says quite clearly:

"The squad may have camo cloaks........ +X pts per model"

Either the squad has camo cloaks, or the squad does not have camo cloaks, there's no option for buying half the squad camo cloaks.

Drunkspleen is correct.

Furthermore, there is no rules preventing Telion buying extra equipment, he just doesn't have any options in his entry. He is, however, still part of the squad, so if you buy camo cloaks, he has to buy one too.

And remember that it doesn't stack with his stealth USR either.

Gah. Well, thats annoying. Now I gotta figure out who to take a melta-bomb from so I can buy him a cloak...

Commander Endova wrote:Gah. Well, thats annoying. Now I gotta figure out who to take a melta-bomb from so I can buy him a cloak...

Dude, you don't have to buy him a camo cloak, because its silly. Every model has to buy one in the squad, and he already has one, so no need for him to get another one. And if you play in any official tournament, when you submit your list for checking just ask if that is how they want to play it or not, most of the time they are cool and would agree with you. In friendly games, no one is going to throw a stink if they somehow think you are cheating by not spending 5 pts or less on a camo cloak a guy that already has one.

EDIT: If you came for the RAW answer, you already got one from above, but as you know, there are A LOT of RAW that makes no sense and nobody plays it that way anyways. If you want to know how other people play it, then stick with your gut and common sense to do the right thing, because that is what everybody else does and WH40k hasn't blown up yet.

Aya wrote:So unless you get into the Tellion granting stealth to his squad argument

This argument happens to be unequivocally correct (in essence). As long as Telion is alive, all the models in his squad get +1 to their cover saves, even though they do not have stealth, so you're really wasting your points if you buy camo cloaks.

This is yet another area of the rules where people do not want to play by the rules. You can be the guy who benefits from this, or you can be the jerk who argues with the rulebook. Pick your side wisely.

padixon wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:Gah. Well, thats annoying. Now I gotta figure out who to take a melta-bomb from so I can buy him a cloak...

Dude, you don't have to buy him a camo cloak, because its silly. Every model has to buy one in the squad, and he already has one, so no need for him to get another one. And if you play in any official tournament, when you submit your list for checking just ask if that is how they want to play it or not, most of the time they are cool and would agree with you. In friendly games, no one is going to throw a stink if they somehow think you are cheating by not spending 5 pts or less on a camo cloak a guy that already has one.

EDIT: If you came for the RAW answer, you already got one from above, but as you know, there are A LOT of RAW that makes no sense and nobody plays it that way anyways. If you want to know how other people play it, then stick with your gut and common sense to do the right thing, because that is what everybody else does and WH40k hasn't blown up yet.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know things like "Playing by the rules" were not wanted at tournaments. Next time I play at a tourniment you are at, would you mind if I take 1000 points more than you and 5 HQ Choices? I know it's not "RaW", but you don't seem to mind!

Gwar! wrote:Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know things like "Playing by the rules" were not wanted at tournaments. Next time I play at a tourniment you are at, would you mind if I take 1000 points more than you and 5 HQ Choices? I know it's not "RaW", but you don't seem to mind!

This is a classic slippery slope argument, and, like most of such, is manifest nonsense. If you wish to make a point, Gwar, you might benefit from toning down the sarcasm a little. The 5-point difference that comes from not buying Telion a cloak is in no way comparable.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know things like "Playing by the rules" were not wanted at tournaments. Next time I play at a tourniment you are at, would you mind if I take 1000 points more than you and 5 HQ Choices? I know it's not "RaW", but you don't seem to mind!

This is a classic slippery slope argument, and, like most of such, is manifest nonsense. If you wish to make a point, Gwar, you might benefit from toning down the sarcasm a little. The 5-point difference that comes from not buying Telion a cloak is in no way comparable.

Yes, it is. It is a slippery slope, which is why, rather than going down it, you build a fence made of Plasteel and Cerimite and make sure no-one goes even an inch down the slope. (i.e. Not even a single point over, everything by the book).

Gwar! wrote:
Yes, it is. It is a slippery slope, which is why, rather than going down it, you build a fence made of Plasteel and Cerimite and make sure no-one goes even an inch down the slope. (i.e. Not even a single point over, everything by the book).

I agree with you about points; I will run a list a few points under rather than going one over. But the fact is that there are many cases where RAW either 1) Simply does not work, or 2) Makes no sense. House rules are necessary to make the game work; in that sense, we are already on the "slippery slope". The question is how far to go. In this case, I say Telion doesn't need a camo cloak. YMMV.

padixon wrote:

Commander Endova wrote:Gah. Well, thats annoying. Now I gotta figure out who to take a melta-bomb from so I can buy him a cloak...

Dude, you don't have to buy him a camo cloak, because its silly. Every model has to buy one in the squad, and he already has one, so no need for him to get another one. And if you play in any official tournament, when you submit your list for checking just ask if that is how they want to play it or not, most of the time they are cool and would agree with you. In friendly games, no one is going to throw a stink if they somehow think you are cheating by not spending 5 pts or less on a camo cloak a guy that already has one.

EDIT: If you came for the RAW answer, you already got one from above, but as you know, there are A LOT of RAW that makes no sense and nobody plays it that way anyways. If you want to know how other people play it, then stick with your gut and common sense to do the right thing, because that is what everybody else does and WH40k hasn't blown up yet.

I agree. In a friendly game, it usually wouldn't be that big an issue. The way my list is set up, buying him a camo cloak would literally be an 1851 point total. I'm more worried about encountering a TFG, though.


Can someone enlighten me as to the "Telion grants his squad Stealth" argument?

Commander Endova wrote:Can someone enlighten me as to the "Telion grants his squad Stealth" argument?

Telion has the USR "Stealth".

The Stealth USR states:

The ability to make maximum use of available cover has saved many a warrior from discovery and death. All of the unit's cover saves are improved by + 1.

Thus, even a single model in a unit that has stealth means the entire unit benefits. This is not an "Argument" or an "Interpretation", it is what the rules say, and anyone saying otherwise is NOT playing by the rules. It is THAT simple.

Gwar! wrote:[Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know things like "Playing by the rules" were not wanted at tournaments. Next time I play at a tourniment you are at, would you mind if I take 1000 points more than you and 5 HQ Choices? I know it's not "RaW", but you don't seem to mind!

Last I checked this is "You Make Da Call" and not "Gwar! makes all the calls" forum. My answer as you quoted said if you want RAW see above, but sense he wrote about having to 'have' to buy a silly low point wargear that was not even needed; I wanted to make sure that he know that was probably not a good move. If you don't like my responses even when they agree "RAW" wise, then don't respond. This game has been around for 25 years, and so far 40k has not imploded with crazy scenarios like the one you mentioned, yet simple 'common sense' decisions are made on rules like this on a daily/hourly/minutely basis around the world. This game has ambiguous rules that can be read either way, and rules that when read as written make no sense and ruin the fun, but we are all grown ups and we deal with them in a grown up manner as they come up. Even in tournaments, TOs want the players to have fun first, and silly things like this has never caused any problems as long as you made them aware of your intentions, I have done this many times in many tournaments around the world and never had any problems as long as your courteous, your solution to a RAW problem makes sense, and you show that you are doing it with the best intentions.

I think you are a good guy Gwar! but sometimes you can get a bit carried away.

I agree with GWAR, even though in grey areas I normally slip towards a RAI interpretation, but under 5th ed Rules Telion most definently grants stealth to his squad without the need for cloaks, and since the codex was written after 5th edition came out (and since it makes sense fluff wise), it works from a both RAI and RAW standpoint imho.

Awesome! I had no idea about that. Now what to do with those extra 12 points...

Commander Endova wrote:Awesome! I had no idea about that. Now what to do with those extra 12 points...

Just be aware though, if Telion Dies, BAM, the unit loses Stealth, as no models then have the USR. The Camo Cloaks are actually a good investment, it allows the unit to keep Stealth even if Telion Pops his clogs (which is more than possible due to wound allocation or Dangerous terrain).