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Hey all I just got back into 40k and have been working on a salamander Force. Local tournaments are always set at 1750, please let me know how I could better this list.

HQ
Vulkan--190pts

Troops

Scout squad w/4 sniper rifles and 1 missle launcher--105pts
Scout squad w/3 shotguns, 1 heavy bloter, and bolt pistol cc weapon sarge--90pts
Tactical squad w/ flamer, MM, & Rhino--205pts
Tactical squad w/ flamer, MM, & Rhino--205pts

Elite

5 Assault Termies w/ TH and SS & Landraider Redemer--465pts
5 Sternguard w/ 2 HF, PW, PLasma Gun, and Razorback w/ TL Lascannons--285pts

Fast

Land Speeder Storm--50pts

Heavy

Vindicator--125pts

1720pts total

Jackyl63 wrote:HQ
Vulkan--190pts

Keeping in mind Vulkan's attributes, you should make sure your list will play to his Chapter Tactics in order to maximize efficiency.

Jackyl63 wrote:Scout squad w/4 sniper rifles and 1 missile launcher--105pts

I say drop the scouts. At 1750 you need to run 3 tactical squads.

Jackyl63 wrote:Scout squad w/3 shotguns, 1 heavy bolter, and bolt pistol cc weapon sarge--90pts

Scouts, especially 5 man squads are not worth it. They are an easy kill point.

Jackyl63 wrote:Tactical squad w/ flamer, MM, & Rhino--205pts

I say throw a combi-melta in to these squads. For the points I say take three 3xTact Squads Flamer/MM, Combi-Melta, Rhino=645

Jackyl63 wrote:5 Assault Termies w/ TH and SS & Landraider Redeemer--465pts

These points have to be wrong. A Redeemer is 240 points and a TH/SS Termie squad is 200. Unless of course you take a MM and Extra Armor, then it adds up. But you should list the upgrades for us. Keep in mind that Vulkan does not TL the Flamestorm cannons on the Redeemer though...

Jackyl63 wrote:5 Sternguard w/ 2 HF, PW, Plasma Gun, and Razorback w/ TL Lascannons--285pts

This setup is way to expensive, and does not maximize what you can do with Vulcan. Try this instead: Sternguard, 1 Meltagun, 2 Combi-Melta, 1 Combi-Flamer, PF, Razorback w/Las/TL PGs=245

Jackyl63 wrote:Land Speeder Storm--50pts

I would suggest dropping the Scouts and upping this to a HF/MM Land Speeder for 70 pts.

Jackyl63 wrote:Vindicator--125pts

Always gotta love the Vindicator

Jackyl63 wrote:1720pts total

If you take my suggestions you will be sitting at 1740. Give two squads Melta Bombs, and the list will look pretty nasty.

Jackyl63 wrote:Vulkan--190pts

Solid choice

Scout squad w/4 sniper rifles and 1 missle launcher--105pts

I know everyone loves Snipers but they always under-perform.

Scout squad w/3 shotguns, 1 heavy bloter, and bolt pistol cc weapon sarge--90pts

Assuming this squad rides in the Storm which I love to do but I would drop the Heavy Bolter and take another shotgun or CCW/Bolt Pistol. Get your Sarge some punch with a meltabomb and/or combi-melta. You can take a Powerfist but it's a bit expensive for a fragile unit like scouts.
PRO TIP - If you get first turn scout turbo boost your Storm within 12" of some armour preferably two tanks/transports. On turn one move up the storm use the multi-melta on slag one and use the scouts to assault the other one getting automatic hits because they haven't moved.

Tactical squad w/ flamer, MM, & Rhino--205pts
Tactical squad w/ flamer, MM, & Rhino--205pts

Two Tacticals work fine if you play them defensively.
PRO TIP - if you are playing defensively NEVER get out of the Rhino until your forced too.

5 Assault Termies w/ TH and SS & Landraider Redemer--465pts

Killer combo there

5 Sternguard w/ 2 HF, PW, PLasma Gun, and Razorback w/ TL Lascannons--285pts

Don't really like the set up here. In a Vulcan list you need to focus on your strengths. Should be using all combi-meltas and/or combi-flamers.
PRO TIP - 10 Sternguard in a Drop with combi-meltas are one of the best alpha strike units in the game and don't forget they can combat squad as they disembark from the drop pod

Land Speeder Storm--50pts

Take a Multi-melta on this, your chapter tactics help with the BS3 WS or Heavy Flamer.

Vindicator--125pts

PRO TIP - Make sure you use your Rhinos to screen your Vindicator till it can do some damage

Drop the scouts, you waste 190p of Vulkan otherwise and besides, they are not fluffy in a salamanders force.

Up the terminator numbers, 5 will never do any good vs things they are meant to defeat.

Up the sternguard numbers or skip them altogether, 5 are never enough except for an expensive AT killer in a pod and that in itself is pretty stupid.

Vulkan armies are only effective if you really maximise on his reroll abilities, only take weapons and wargear that benefit from those.

Pyriel- wrote:Up the terminator numbers, 5 will never do any good vs things they are meant to defeat.

"will never" have to disagree there

Up the sternguard numbers or skip them altogether, 5 are never enough

again with "never" have to disagree here too 5 to 6 sternguard can be effective in a razorback

Vulkan armies are only effective if you really maximise on his reroll abilities, only take weapons and wargear that benefit from those.

this I agree with

What are 5 hammer terminators going to do against their prime targets, non instant killable monsters and melee characters?
Take a deamon prince that can down half a tac squad per melee turn, they will loose 2 terminators before they even strike back and do some 1-2 wounds in return. The result is a wiped out termie squad and hopfully a killed deamon prince in return. If tehre were more members they would kill it on the first turn.

The point of hammer terminators is to kill dangerous stuff in melee as fast as possible without being killed of themselves. You pay lots of points for those hamemrs and you need them to whack stuf every possible turn, not being locked in combat with dirt cheap orks or wasted one on one vs monstrous creatures or deamon princes.

You charge your 5 terminators into an ork mob, you need to exceed the kill ration by far, not just draw the melee since almost every exceeded kill will kill yet another ork due to the fearless wound taking.

Plus, every army can handle 5 terminators but try and DS 10 hammer terminators with Vulkan in the middle of the enemy army while the rest of yours is advancing and watch the panic.
More terminators doesnt mean equally bigger power, adding more terminators mean in effect an exponential power build for that unit.

Sternguards:
Same here, what on earth are 5 ever going to do? They need to shoot and stay away from being charged. If you have more then you can better risk rapid range and know they will annihilate their target and be spared from charges.

Pyriel- wrote:What are 5 hammer terminators going to do against their prime targets
Sternguards:
Same here, what on earth are 5 ever going to do?

I am not here to write you a tactica but I can tell you it works for me.

Pyriel- wrote:What are 5 hammer terminators going to do against their prime targets, non instant killable monsters and melee characters?
Take a deamon prince that can down half a tac squad per melee turn, they will loose 2 terminators before they even strike back and do some 1-2 wounds in return. The result is a wiped out termie squad and hopfully a killed deamon prince in return. If tehre were more members they would kill it on the first turn.

I've got to disagree here. Whilst you'll usually lose one Terminator before you get to strike, 4 MC Thunderhammers is generally enough to wipe out a Daemon Prince.
12 attacks, 8 or so hit, 7 or so wound, at least 4 failed saves. Even if he gets lucky, you've still got 1-2 fearless wounds which could kill it.

Also, DSing Assault Terminators is really, really not effective. You totally loose your ability to decide what to assault and where, and give away the charge bonus which TH/SS Terminators need so badly.

Not at all.
If using a pod army massed termie DS is very powerful.
Remember, you pay an additional 250+ points to have the terminators charge, that is IF the landraider doesnt buy it beforehand.
If you DS you can have (point wise) over 11 terminators that will receive the charge, that is better then having 5 that will maybe get the charge.

There is absolutely no justification in paying the points of 6.5 terminators simply to have one 5 terminator squad get added charge chances, none!

The shock of having 10 DS in the middle of the enemy along with the rest of your army is more worth it. Few armies can handle that and opponents often make mistakes due to stress.

Scout squad w/3 shotguns, 1 heavy bloter, and bolt pistol cc weapon sarge--90pts

Land Speeder Storm--50pts

I presume these go together? Also your scout sniper points are wrong they are 85 points not 105 or 100 if you've got camocloaks on them but not listed.

If you are putting the above together you've kitted both out wrong. I love using the speeder Storm assault (I have 2 squads in my army). But what you need to remember is: Scout BS is poor the Heavy Bolter will rarely hit. The 2 together will average just 3 hits. A Heavy flamer by contrast should get about 10-15 hits on a packed unit. The mobile fire platform tactic with eth storm doesn't work because the BS of the scouts is not good enough. Those 8 Shotgun shots equates to just 4 hits and why shotguns? If you're going to assault you're better off with the BP/CCW weapon combo if you're going gun boat the AP5 of the Bolters makes them better.

If you're going to take a storm it needs to be with a heavy flamer. Then the scouts need combat blades and bolt pistols. The Sarge then needs either Meltabombs and a power sword or preferably a power fist and if you've the points he could do with a combi weapon too (be careful though if you take a combi-flamer you may well kill the enemy out of your charge range, combi-melta works well for taking out the transport before assaulting the survivors).

FlingitNow wrote:If you're going to take a storm it needs to be with a heavy flamer. Then the scouts need combat blades and bolt pistols. The Sarge then needs either Meltabombs and a power sword or preferably a power fist and if you've the points he could do with a combi weapon too (be careful though if you take a combi-flamer you may well kill the enemy out of your charge range, combi-melta works well for taking out the transport before assaulting the survivors).

I would recommend equipping your Storm in a way that compliments your Scouts it is carrying. I run mine as Anti-tank with a Multi-melta on the storm, scouts equipped with CCW/BP, and the Sarge with Meltabombs. My usual tactic (if I get first turn) is Alpha Strike or (if I don't get first turn) Outflank. For my Alpha Strike tactic I Turbo-boost scout move as close to 12" as I can to armour , then on turn one move up 12" and disembark and try to get two units of armour. Multi-melta one and charge the other. So if I put on a Heavy flamer what goods that do me? My scouts and storm rarely last after that I would rather take a shot at killing some more armour. Now if I was to set up as Anti-GEQ I would consider a Heavy Flamer and maybe some Shotguns.

But either way I agree with Fling that the Heavy Weapon is a waste.

I would recommend equipping your Storm in a way that compliments your Scouts it is carrying. I run mine as Anti-tank with a Multi-melta on the storm, scouts equipped with CCW/BP, and the Sarge with Meltabombs. My usual tactic (if I get first turn) is Alpha Strike or (if I don't get first turn) Outflank. For my Alpha Strike tactic I Turbo-boost scout move as close to 12" as I can to armour , then on turn one move up 12" and disembark and try to get two units of armour. Multi-melta one and charge the other. So if I put on a Heavy flamer what goods that do me? My scouts and storm rarely last after that I would rather take a shot at killing some more armour. Now if I was to set up as Anti-GEQ I would consider a Heavy Flamer and maybe some Shotguns.

Yeah for anti-tank the multimelta works well as does giving the Sarge a combi-melta to compliment the bombs. I agree with you on alpha-strike or outflank (depending on whether you go first or 2nd).

I don't see the advantage of ever taking the shotguns? If you're going to assault which is the best tactic against GEQ as you can easily sweep them off the board (done so to a unit of 30 with a squad of 5 scouts), then the BP and CCW is the better option. Same number fo toal S4 attacks but one more at AP5 and 1 more going towards combat resolution win win. If you just want to shoot take the bolters for AP5 and the ability to shoot one shot further. I can't see any situation where you'd be better off with the shotgun.

FlingitNow wrote:I don't see the advantage of ever taking the shotguns?

yeah I've never used them, hence the reason I maybe

but I've heard a couple guys at the last tournament I was at saying they swore by them. I don't know I'd have to try them out a few games to see if it's worth it but losing an attack in the Assault to fire one more time...yeah I don't know

Flingit knows his stuff when it comes to storms, listen to him

Well decided to crunch the numbers here's the breakdown

Scouts with Bolt Pistols and CCW vs. 10 man GEQ

Shooting Phase = avg. 1.78 unsaved wounds
Assault Phase = avg. 3.88 unsaved wounds
Total = avg. 5.66 unsaved wounds


Scouts with Shotguns vs. 10 man GEQ

Shooting Phase = avg. 3.56 unsaved wounds
Assault Phase = avg. 2.69 unsaved wounds
Total = 6.25 unsaved wounds



hmm interesting...

I don't see how you've come up with those numbers? To hit rolls are the same for both shooting and CC attacks, scouts go first in CC (so all attacks are made before reprisals), the guard get no save vs the 5 BP shots where as they get a save against the shotgun shots. How on earth have you calculated that?

Here's the maths:

5 BP shots = 2.66 hits = 1.78 unsaved wounds
16 attacks = 2.66 hits from sarge 6 hits from scouts = 10.66 hits = 7.11 wounds = 4.74 unsaved wounds
=6.5 unsaved wounds total

Shotguns:

10 shots = 5.33 hits = 3.56 wounds = 2.37 unsaved wounds
11 attacks = 2 hits from sarge, 4 hits from scouts = 6 hits = 4 wounds = 2.67 wounds
= 5 wounds taken total

4 IG return attacks = 2 hits = .66 wounds = .33 unsaved wounds.

5 IG return attacks = 2.5 = 1.66 wounds = 0.83 unsaved wounds.

Likely combat resolution with BP and CCW +5 for the scouts. Likely combat resolution of +2 for the shotgun scouts... Bump that upto a squad of 20 Guardsmen and the return statistics look like this:

14 IG return attacks = 7 hits = 2.33 wounds = 1.16 casualties.

15 IG return attacks = 7.5 hits = 2.5 wounds = 1.25 casualties.

Meaning the Shotguns only scrape through the combat resolution with +1, and have a decent chance of losing combat, the BP and CCW scouts still win comfortably by 3-4, bump up to 30 IG and the shotgun scouts are 2nd favourite whilst the BP & CCW scouts are still strong favourites.

FlingitNow wrote:

5 BP shots = 2.66 hits = 1.78 unsaved wounds
16 attacks = 2.66 hits from sarge 6 hits from scouts = 10.66 hits = 7.11 wounds = 4.74 unsaved wounds
=6.5 unsaved wounds total


Shotguns:

10 shots = 5.33 hits = 3.56 wounds = 2.37 unsaved wounds
11 attacks = 2 hits from sarge, 4 hits from scouts = 6 hits = 4 wounds = 2.67 wounds
= 5 wounds taken total

Your right I was off on the Shotgun Scouts but your still off somewhere according to my figures

4 Scouts BP = Hits 2 wounds 1.33 Unsaved Wounds 1.33
1 Sarge BP = Hits .67 wounds 0.45 Unsaved Wounds 0.45

Total Shooting = 1.78

4 Scouts BP/CCW 12 Attacks= Hits 6 Wounds 4.02 unsaved wounds 2.68
1 Sarge BP/CCW 4 Attacks= Hits 2.68 wounds 1.8 unsaved wounds 1.2

Total Assault = 3.88

Total Turn = 5.66

4 Scouts Shotguns = Hits 4 Wounds 2.67 Unsaved Wounds 1.78
1 Sarge Shotgun = Hits 1.33 Wounds 0.89 Unsaved Wounds .59

Total Shooting = 2.37

4 Scouts Shotguns 8 Attacks = Hits 4 Wounds 2.68 Unsaved Wounds 1.79
1 Sarge Shotgun 3 Attacks = Hits 2.01 Wounds 1.35 Unsaved Wounds 0.9

Total Assault = 2.69

Total Turn = 5.06



Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:
16 attacks = 2.66 hits from sarge 6 hits from scouts = 10.66 hits

Right here 2.66 + 6 is not 10.66

But yah agreed Shotguns are not the way to go

Right here 2.66 + 6 is not 10.66

Yeah typo must have pressed 8 on the calculator...

But the point still stands you do get slightly fewer kills and less combat resolution. Lose lose with the Shotguns if you ask me. Especially jumping out of a storm it is all about combat resolution so you can make then run and sweep up.