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I've been playing Necrons for quite some time but someone brought up some good questions when I watched a guy play today. As he had the entire FAQ printed out I read it over to refresh some things and when I noticed him do this it got me thinking:

As I've normally been playing them, when a Necron becomes damaged I'd lay it down on it's side and leave it there regardless if the unit is wiped out or falls back. Remove the survivors if the unit is swept away leaving the damaged models where they lay until WBB rolls, removing any if unable to at that time as they are effectively ignoring coherency and thus no long part of the squad, just mere debris on the field.

Now, the way he played them, the casualties moved with the unit when they were damaged, removed the entire unit if swept away, including the damaged Necrons from that squad.

Going through the FAQ, the mention of whether a damaged model can make it's repairs when measuring res orb distance, it says that afterwards, the damaged Necrons move with the squad. Then it goes on to say follow suit for shooting.

This has gotten me confused, as are now damaged Necrons supposed to stay within the squad, despite saying ignore coherency. Saying when it passes WBB it joins the closest unit of the same type, not the same unit it started from. The same with sweeping advances, normally when I explain it to my opponents, show the codex and such, they have no qualms about removing the survivors and leaving the damaged, is it now remove the entire squad and damaged Necrons as well?

Yes, downed Necrons are removed after a Sweeping Advance, as they are still part of the unit. That is why if you use the Monolith to teleport a unit, the downed Necrons come with it.

Hmm I see. Now the Chronometron will be in my lists more often then.

This now raises a new question. Treating damaged models as part of the unit, when the entire squad is downed awaiting WBB, I measure for each model to see if eligible. The guy I watched just measured to one of them and then rolled for all, in the case of his 2 destroyer units. From actual measurements, only 1 would have been in range, not all 4. Again, new way of doing WBB or was this bending it?

I'm not sure why the FAQ authors thought that moving the downed models with a falling back unit simplified or helped anything. It might make it slightly easier for a falling back unit to get back to 50% so it can rally, but how often does a Necron unit fail a check and not get swept? And it's not like downed models are going to stick around for multiple turns under most interpretations...

But, like MasterSlowPoke points out, the membership status of a downed model stays the same until it succeeds at a WBB roll. That means that a swept unit could still have downed models attached to it, and those downed models would get removed if the unit retreated off of the board, was swept, or destroyed due to deep strike mishap.

As much as I love the Idea of We'll Be Back, I hate it's implementation and so very much look forward to the new Codex and it's nigh inevitable replacement with Feel No Pain.

Kurgash wrote:Hmm I see. Now the Chronometron will be in my lists more often then.

Just a note about this point. The Chronometron isn't really that useful, because if you have say a Lord with warriors/immortals/destroyers, they'll still test their (2D6 Pick the highest) initiative test against the I2 of the warriors, not of the lord, so the Chronometron doesn't help you too much most of the time...

Kurgash - each model has to be within 6" in order to be eligibile for WBB, you cannot measure to one and then start rolling. What he did was wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kurgash - each model has to be within 6" in order to be eligibile for WBB, you cannot measure to one and then start rolling. What he did was wrong.

I don't have my Codex on me but I was under the impression that the Res Orb specifically says that only one model in the unit needs to be within 6" of the Res Orb for the whole unit to be eligible to use it.

Alamoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kurgash - each model has to be within 6" in order to be eligibile for WBB, you cannot measure to one and then start rolling. What he did was wrong.

I don't have my Codex on me but I was under the impression that the Res Orb specifically says that only one model in the unit needs to be within 6" of the Res Orb for the whole unit to be eligible to use it.

Res orb only amplifies the WBB roll to allow models that were killed due to power weapons/equivalent attacks and attacks/shootings at a strength double the toughness. No more.

If the Orb is within 6" of one STANDING model from the unit at the time they started going down, the whole unit benefits from it and will be allowed to make the WBB rolls if killed by weapons that normally don't allow it.

On your turn when the downed guys then try to get up, they EACH must be within 6" of a like model to get a roll. If you've got a unit of Warriors spread out over 12", and enough guys on one end of the formation go down so the far guy is not within 6" of standing Warriors, he does not get a WBB roll.

Alamoth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kurgash - each model has to be within 6" in order to be eligibile for WBB, you cannot measure to one and then start rolling. What he did was wrong.

I don't have my Codex on me but I was under the impression that the Res Orb specifically says that only one model in the unit needs to be within 6" of the Res Orb for the whole unit to be eligible to use it.

And this is a common misconception. All it does is allow WBB where normally it would be denied due to ID or power weapons, nothing else.

In my experience, the downed Necrons are only removed after sweeping advance if there aren't any other models of the same type nearby to facilitate WBB. A nearby Tomb Spyder, for instance, would allow the previously destroyed ones to hop back up with another squad on the board. The FAQ says that the whole "corpses" moving with the squad is so you don't forget how many WBB rolls to make.

And that isnt what the rules actually say, just how people have gotten the rules wrong.

WBB is a confusing mess at times, but downed necrons remaining part of their original unit is NOT one of them.

Oh god.. it figures that the very first day i come back home to dakka Dakka it's the Necron questions all over again.... Jesus...

ANYWAYS--

WBB: AN ACTION ORIENTATION

WBB-- what does it mean? How does it work? There are many specific question that arise with this rule in regards to res orbs, monoliths, and sweeping advance.

In general, the answer before you ask is NO.

WBB itself allows you to take a model which has been wounded and failed its save (RULE: = Casualty: see BRB) or would OTHERWISE BE REMOVED AS A CASUALTY (Rule: see Casualty BRB) and turn it on its side for a later chance to re-save with a 4+ roll.

There are effective limitations to this, but also expansive options.

In a limited fashion, weapons which succesfully caused failed saves and which also had strength twice that of the dead model's toughness CAN NOT stand up. This is fairly obvious in the codex. The same is true for wounds from 'power weapons or weapons which do not allow for an armor save'. Once again, obvious.

Now, for the less obvious sweeping. NO-- just...NO.
There are reasons for this.. first of all- we have to establish that dead models felled from a unit being swept are in fact still part of the unit.

(1) Causalties having to move with the unit when it falls back
(2) Casualties hitching the unit's ride through the Monolith

NOTE: If you require further proof speak to Gwar. He will make you BELIEVE.

Having established that dead models are still part of the unit being swept, now we come to why it doesn't work with WBB wanting to remove them from the table.

Quick Answer---> WBB only activates if you're being removed as a casualty or 'would otherwise be removed as a casualty'. That's not generic English conversation friends -- that's specific ruling. Sweeping, sadly, does not remove models as casualties in ANY sense-- it simply picks models up and tosses them into hell.

Now, having said all the limitations... well, not really ALL of them, but the ones most directly linked to WBB itself and not its interaction with other rules... anyways-- the good stuff!

WBB lets you stand up from AP 1 and 2! You CAN stand up from Instant Kill wounds. How you ask? As long as the IK wasn't caused by double-toughness stomp or power weapons, the IK is based on the rule of 'removing it as a casualty'. BUT don't take my word for it-- go read the BRB topic: Instant Kill.

Also, the 'otherwise remove as a casulty' actually DOES occur here and there. The odd Eldar/Ork weapon and psychic spells here say do this and do that--- but they also say 'remove as a casualty' thus popping WBB.

Once again, ask the Vets here for a listing of said spells,etc.

As to range... the Errata/FAQ is deliberate when it states to measure the downed models' closeness to the res orb immediately after failing the saves so you know EXACTLY what was in range... BTW it explicitly pointed out that this is done per model, not by 1 model being close enough to open the magic box for the whole unit.

I'm sure there are other questions so just chunk them out there and someone will nail away at them.

Boon of Mutation/Gift of Chaos and Lukas the Trickster's Stasis bomb are probably the more interesting effects that allow WBB to be taken.