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Since my last list suggested here (The O&G one with four Spider Rider Fast-Cav units) worked decently in a game, I'm thinking to expand / modify the list somewhat for a 2500pt in-store tournament. The only limitations to the list are: No more than 1 Scroll / Army, and one extra Core Slot requirement (High Elves need three, all other armies four). Could this list work?

LORD

Black Orc Warboss 446pts
Heavy Armor
Wyvern
Shaga's Screamin' Sword
Enchanted Shield
Warboss Umm's Best Boss 'At


HEROES

Black Orc Big Boss 121pts
Heavy Armor
Shield
Warboss Imbad's Iron Gnashas

Black Orc Big Boss 129pts
Heavy Armor
Battle Standard Bearer
Martog's Best Basha

Orc Shaman 95pts
Staff of Sorcery


CORE

25 Orc Boy Big 'Uns 340pts
Additional Choppas
Musician
Standard
- Mork's Spirit Totem

25 Orc Boyz 205
Additional Choppas
Musician
Standard
Champion

6 Spider Riders 84pts
Musician

6 Spider Riders 84pts
Musician

5 Spider Riders 71pts
Musician

5 Wolf Riders 76pts
Spears
Short Bows
(Here because they're slightly faster than Spider Riders)


SPECIAL

24 Black Orcs 379pts
Shields
Musician
Standard Bearer
- War Banner

24 Black Orcs 330pts
Musician
Standard Bearer

2 Spear Chukkas 70pts

2 Spear Chukkas 70pts

~ ~ ~ ~

I could write another list, it wouldn't be that difficult as I still have unused: 100 Night Goblins, 6 Fanatics, Night Goblin Shaman, Night Goblin Big Boss, 3 Squig Herds, 5 River Trolls, 3 Stone Trolls, more Orc characters than you can shake a stick at, 20 Orc Spearmen, 3-4 Snotling Bases, a Pump Wagon (should I ever acquire a base for it). The catch? Tournament is fully painted & based, so I'd rather not be forced into having to paint another 70 Goblins at the cost of not painting 10-or-so more Black Orcs. I will do such (I can speed paint said Goblins, Black Orcs not so much) if it sounds more competitive / fun, but I won't if it sounds like you're just trying to egg me into painting the most models in the shortest amount of time because it's fun to watch a Dakka-ite suffer under a mound of models.


The main advantages of the above army are:

All my units, with the exception of the Goblin Cavalry & War Machines, can be Leadership 8 without my General nearby, and Leadership 9 with him nearby.

Four units of Fast Cavalry, as well as a Flying-capable Warboss, means I can rapidly mobilize my army to set up effective flank charges, force the enemy on the defensive, and so on.

6 Dispel Dice, with +1 to Dispel, is not bad. Not good, either, but at only about 135pts total for four extra dice and +1 to Dispel Attempts, it'll help in many instances.

4 Bolt Throwers work as effective anti-monster / heavy cavalry weapon systems. They should also do decently to thin down some enemy regiments.

The main disadvantages I see for my army are:

General, while mobile, is also vulnerable: Is only a 3+ save, and his mount is only a 4+ with 5 Wounds. T5 for each, yes, but if I face down a couple cannons that could go poorly.

My Cavalry force is still worried by Animosity, and poor leadership poses problems should I face Elves.

Heavily unarmored force. My best save unit is 3+ in hand-to-hand, which ties with my general's base save, and everything else is only a 5+ as best.

6 Dispel Dice, with no scroll, will not be enough to stop a very magic-heavy army (something I predict the "One Scroll per Army" rule will persuade many people to go for).

Critique on the list, what to cut out, and what to add, is welcome.

Minsc wrote:Since my last list suggested here (The O&G one with four Spider Rider Fast-Cav units) worked decently in a game, I'm thinking to expand / modify the list somewhat for a 2500pt in-store tournament. The only limitations to the list are: No more than 1 Scroll / Army, and one extra Core Slot requirement (High Elves need three, all other armies four). Could this list work?

LORD

Black Orc Warboss 446pts
Heavy Armor
Wyvern
Shaga's Screamin' Sword
Enchanted Shield
Warboss Umm's Best Boss 'At

Not a bad set up, I'm not fully sold on Shagga's, but I can understand if you are trying to give your heroes more bang, thought I think the akrit axe is better math-hammer wise, and cheaper. since a black orc warboss is already pretty good. I've never ran him on a wyvern, but given that it isn't a large target, seems to make it work pretty good

HEROES

Black Orc Big Boss 121pts
Heavy Armor
Shield
Warboss Imbad's Iron Gnashas

Good, but put him on a boar, extra +2 armor save for 16 points

Black Orc Big Boss 129pts
Heavy Armor
Battle Standard Bearer
Martog's Best Basha

Not bad, cheap and effective, mount up, just as above

Orc Shaman 95pts
Staff of Sorcery

I like the staff better than taking scrolls anyway

CORE

25 Orc Boy Big 'Uns 340pts
Additional Choppas
Musician
Standard
- Mork's Spirit Totem

I don't like big 'uns at all, even if it means taking the spirit totem with them. Points-wise they never work, only time I ever take big uns is on a unit of savage orc boar boyz and use them as a pure offensive unit. The problem here, is that you don't want this unit getting to caught in, since you need to keep max ranks to gain the most effectiveness out of the banner.

25 Orc Boyz 205
Additional Choppas
Musician
Standard
Champion

I like it, hitty, big enough to have survivors get across the board.

6 Spider Riders 84pts
Musician

6 Spider Riders 84pts
Musician

5 Spider Riders 71pts
Musician

5 Wolf Riders 76pts
Spears
Short Bows
(Here because they're slightly faster than Spider Riders)

Never used that many fast units, though I have had success with fast units redirecting frenzied troops and setting it up for my hammer to slam into their flanks, so I like these.

SPECIAL

24 Black Orcs 379pts
Shields
Musician
Standard Bearer
- War Banner

24 Black Orcs 330pts
Musician
Standard Bearer

I can't stand 7th edition black orcs, too expensive for what they do. A chaos warrior is better in every way and the points difference does not make up for it. Only time I would take black orcs, is if I was running a Grimgor's Horde, and even then I wouldn't go 24 deep. I can see you're planning on putting heroes in here maybe? I wouldn't recommend that, as they don't test for animosity, and can stand on their own just fine, the normal orc units will need the help. Still, if I were you, I'd ditch both units and invest that 700 points elsewhere (will give recommendations at end)

2 Spear Chukkas 70pts

2 Spear Chukkas 70pts

Always good

~ ~ ~ ~

I could write another list, it wouldn't be that difficult as I still have unused: 100 Night Goblins, 6 Fanatics, Night Goblin Shaman, Night Goblin Big Boss, 3 Squig Herds, 5 River Trolls, 3 Stone Trolls, more Orc characters than you can shake a stick at, 20 Orc Spearmen, 3-4 Snotling Bases, a Pump Wagon (should I ever acquire a base for it). The catch? Tournament is fully painted & based, so I'd rather not be forced into having to paint another 70 Goblins at the cost of not painting 10-or-so more Black Orcs. I will do such (I can speed paint said Goblins, Black Orcs not so much) if it sounds more competitive / fun, but I won't if it sounds like you're just trying to egg me into painting the most models in the shortest amount of time because it's fun to watch a Dakka-ite suffer under a mound of models.


The main advantages of the above army are:

All my units, with the exception of the Goblin Cavalry & War Machines, can be Leadership 8 without my General nearby, and Leadership 9 with him nearby.

Four units of Fast Cavalry, as well as a Flying-capable Warboss, means I can rapidly mobilize my army to set up effective flank charges, force the enemy on the defensive, and so on.

6 Dispel Dice, with +1 to Dispel, is not bad. Not good, either, but at only about 135pts total for four extra dice and +1 to Dispel Attempts, it'll help in many instances.

4 Bolt Throwers work as effective anti-monster / heavy cavalry weapon systems. They should also do decently to thin down some enemy regiments.

The main disadvantages I see for my army are:

General, while mobile, is also vulnerable: Is only a 3+ save, and his mount is only a 4+ with 5 Wounds. T5 for each, yes, but if I face down a couple cannons that could go poorly.

My Cavalry force is still worried by Animosity, and poor leadership poses problems should I face Elves.

Heavily unarmored force. My best save unit is 3+ in hand-to-hand, which ties with my general's base save, and everything else is only a 5+ as best.

6 Dispel Dice, with no scroll, will not be enough to stop a very magic-heavy army (something I predict the "One Scroll per Army" rule will persuade many people to go for).

Critique on the list, what to cut out, and what to add, is welcome.

A few suggestions you might want to look into:

A savage orc shaman on chariot w/ a skull wand of kaloth is really fun. I can understand though if you don't want to paint/convert one though, as it would take some time and not work with the rest of your theme.

I like the theme, a lot. Orcs, orcs and more ORCS!!! Only downside...orcs aren't the most effective list set up for OnG anymore. Night goblins take the cake.

I know you won't want to hear this, but I would really try to get atleast two 30 man units of night goblins in there, don't even need to give them fanatics, just standard and nets. (the mere threat of fanatics will cause your opponent to adjust his battle strategy)

I would really consider getting rid of the black orcs, it pains me to say that, as they are my favorite unit in the warhammer universe (fluff wise) they just aren't that competitive. There's just too many units in the game anymore than can eat through them pretty effectively, almost one from each army. Night goblins with nets are almost as resilient (outside of leadership and animosity) and cost a fraction of the points. That -1 str from nets is amazing, I've had a unit of N. Goblins tie up chaos warriors for multiple turns to give my hammer units enough time to flank effectively.

THe biggest problem with the list...is that at 2500 points, you should have twice as many units as your opponent, and it doesn't look like you're very close. In every tournament I've won with my orcs (yes, I've won a couple, though very small) it came down to I could just out number my opponent good enough that I won the battle of attrition.

I'd always put your big bosses on boars, the extra armor save will really help (especially in challenges) and it adds another Str 5 attack on the charge.

The magic defense will be a big problem, but it's a problem every orc general has to deal with, so we usually just learn to adapt.

Anyway, it's been about 6 months since I've played Fantasy competitive, since I've been on a 40k kick at the moment, so maybe things have adjusted a little bit, but those are tips that I'd recommend. Overall, your list isn't bad, if you don't want to waste your time with painting more models, you should be ok.

If you plan on using that list, some battle tips:

Use that wyvern to try and get the enemy's magic off the table asap. Against VC, that will be a problem as their magic users are usually burried in units. Use that terror to max affect.

Flee with the black orcs...hear me out. This will throw your opponent way off. If you set it up so that you have a unit in flanking position, wait for your opponent to charge your black orcs, and instead of staying to fight, flee back and catch him with his pants down, as I doubt they will have expected that. With Ld 8 and a musician, they should rally easily enough, and you just exposed your opponent's flank when they weren't planning on it.

Don't try to stand toe to toe. Orcs are good in combat, but most armies have units that are better, don't try to stand toe to toe with those units. What I mean is, against their elite units, orcs will beat up on normal humans/elves/rats just fine. But Black Guard, Stormvermin, chaos knights/warriors, black knights, temple guard, etc...are better at close combat, so try and be "extra sneaky" against them. (Like using the black orc flee thing I said above).

Anyway, that's all for now.

greenbay924 wrote:
Not a bad set up, I'm not fully sold on Shagga's, but I can understand if you are trying to give your heroes more bang, thought I think the akrit axe is better math-hammer wise, and cheaper. since a black orc warboss is already pretty good. I've never ran him on a wyvern, but given that it isn't a large target, seems to make it work pretty good

Wyverns are Large Targets, however their main advantage is: 50mmx50mm base. This allows them to hide behind a lot more terrain than their hugely-based Dragon peers. Heck, they can hide behind more terrain than their Giant / Chariot peers. It's easy to put a tower, small forest, or whatever between your Wyvern and your enemy's cannons for at least the first turn or two. Plus, if you put your general on one, it can benefit from their declared Waaagh! (meaning you can quite possibly, if pointed right, charge through the Forest you were hiding behind earlier into some unit's flank).

I tend to prefer Shagga's for my Warboss, only because - while it hits less often (Ulag's = 75% hit ratio on WS>7, 89% hit ratio on WS<6, Shaga's = 50% hit ratio on WS>7, 66% hit ratio on WS<6), those in my GW tend to tightly pack their characters, as well as have either the maximum number (all 4 in a 2K list) or one shy (3 in a 2K list). As long as you're within range of two characters, you're going to hit your enemy at least the same number of times, with a slightly better wound percentage to boot. If I were playing someone at my GW like one of our Chaos Players (who only has a single hero choice in their army for their general), your choice would be the obvious one as it'd allow me to either save 25pts, or cost 5pts more but take an even further attack (Yay Kickin' Boots!) and be more likely to hit, wound, and kill.

Essentially: If the people at my GW didn't cram as many heroes into their lists as they could, with enough cheese on them to solo entire regiments, I'd probably take you up on your Akrit Axe advice.

greenbay924 wrote:Good, but put him on a boar, extra +2 armor save for 16 points

Easy enough to do, I have a model on a Boar w/ Shield and Gnashas, so it wouldn't be too difficult. Just got to remove 16pts first.

greenbay924 wrote:Not bad, cheap and effective, mount up, just as above

Unfortunately, I cannot do this one (yet!), as I am currently lacking a model both on a boar and carrying a Standard. If I can get one in time for the match, I'll try such (seriously, 5+ save sucks I'd put the Amulet of Protectyness on 'em if more people played Chaos Warriors or Dwarves).

greenbay924 wrote:I like the staff better than taking scrolls anyway

Indeed, a Scroll can be used only once. A staff of sorcery can pay off its points many, many times in a single game.

greenbay924 wrote:I don't like big 'uns at all, even if it means taking the spirit totem with them. Points-wise they never work, only time I ever take big uns is on a unit of savage orc boar boyz and use them as a pure offensive unit. The problem here, is that you don't want this unit getting to caught in, since you need to keep max ranks to gain the most effectiveness out of the banner.

Points-wise, I get mine to work quite decently. However, there are a few things about them:
1) They're, pretty much, needed to stuff in a Spirit Totem without taking a vanilla Battle Standard Bearer. I could stuff one in Black Orcs, which is more resilient, but then I'm wasting them even moreso. If the Spirit Totem were not as effective as it is, I'd stuff a Banner of Butchery on these guys and have a field day. Which brings me to point #2...
2) They need to get the charge to make their points up. If charged, they pretty much collapse like a house of cards. If they can charge, though, especially if they have a character in them, they can do some pretty nice damage (2 WS4 S5 attacks each, plus the character's attacks, plus whether I put them x5 or x6 wide meaning another two attacks possibly). But that's the problem: They need to be the charger. They're charged, I'm likely sans 340pts and three dispel dice.

If I had a way to stuff a magic banner in elsewhere (A regular Boyz unit, for instance), or I could jack up the Big 'Uns durability (a unit with shielded models), I'd probably not take them as-they-are with additional choppas. But, as it stands, it's the best method I have of getting a somewhat killy unit (slightly more durable squigs) as well as additional dispel dice... which I will need this tournament if I intend to not bump up all non-cavalry unit sizes by 10.

greenbay924 wrote:I like it, hitty, big enough to have survivors get across the board.

Oddly enough, people tend not to shoot at them. They always aim at the Big 'Uns, Night Goblins, War Machines, whatever, but not regular Boyz. One shouldn't disregard their mass of S4 and S5 attacks.

Plus, they have one of the most efficient-for-cost unit champion upgrades in the book (15pts nets +1 WS, +1 S, and +1 A, all in one nice bundle!).

greenbay924 wrote:Never used that many fast units, though I have had success with fast units redirecting frenzied troops and setting it up for my hammer to slam into their flanks, so I like these.

Indeed. Better yet, three opponents I can expect / know are in the tournament:

Clan Pestilence: Charge-baiting.
Dark Elves: Slow them down, or force them into a hatred-mandatory pursuit.
Dwarves: Draw their war machine's fire (an organ gun killing six spider riders is an Organ Gun not killing a rank of Orc Boyz), and again force into hatred-mandatory pursuits.

greenbay924 wrote:I can't stand 7th edition black orcs, too expensive for what they do. A chaos warrior is better in every way and the points difference does not make up for it. Only time I would take black orcs, is if I was running a Grimgor's Horde, and even then I wouldn't go 24 deep. I can see you're planning on putting heroes in here maybe? I wouldn't recommend that, as they don't test for animosity, and can stand on their own just fine, the normal orc units will need the help. Still, if I were you, I'd ditch both units and invest that 700 points elsewhere (will give recommendations at end)

Actually, they do tend to stand on their own. 24 is due to the six-wide front, which allows for more attacks as pretty much no-one in my GW understands that you can actually field a unit more than five-wide in the front (meaning I tend to get more attacking models, and thus more wounds, out of my units than theirs).

I thought about a near-min sized unit bodyguarding Grimgor in another list. Essentially an eight-big block with either the War Banner (for the extra combat res point), the banner of Butchery (so Grimgor & the surviving bodyguard can kill a few more), or the Waaagh! banner (so that Grimgor in one turn could, potentially, scream forward 8+2D6", or two turns 8+D6". The advantage is that they still protect Grimgor from shooting, any survivors can attack in close-combat, and - being only eight big - Grimgor will always be capable of rallying so long as he's alive. Plus, it saves a good 130-140pts that would have been spent for additional ranks, greatly reducing the costs you're forced to take to play Grimgor.

Removing these guys from my paint load is, actually, not much a burden: I'm right now taking several hours each model, so losing 20-ish Black Orcs to paint means I'm freeing up enough time to paint much, much more other troops. I can paint Goblins at a much faster rate than Black Orcs, and - humorously enough - tend to have more of them surviving after a battle to boot. However, without them I do need some new hammer units - the Boyz can pick up some slack, but not all of it. Especially if I were to look for a new use of the Big 'Uns points too.

greenbay924 wrote:Always good

Indeed. Wrote up another theoretical list I'd like to try out some time, posted it here. Essentially: War Machine & Magic Missile-spam, all backed by a Gorbad Ironclaw hiding behind the lines alongside an 20 big Big 'Un unit packing the Spirit Totem. Army bundles around Gorbad, get an 18" Ld 10 bubble, packs 9 Dispel Dice with +1 to dispel, six magic levels, enough war machines to (hopefully) panic or wipe-out a unit each turn, and enough (six) fanatics to discourage a Great Eagle from plopping behind your line to start chomping War Machines one-by-one.

Gotta love the cheap but as-effective-as-dwarven war machines

greenbay924 wrote:A few suggestions you might want to look into:

A savage orc shaman on chariot w/ a skull wand of kaloth is really fun. I can understand though if you don't want to paint/convert one though, as it would take some time and not work with the rest of your theme.

Main reason I'm against this is it either sacrifices a normal BOrc character, or drops the Staff of Sorcery

greenbay924 wrote:I know you won't want to hear this, but I would really try to get atleast two 30 man units of night goblins in there, don't even need to give them fanatics, just standard and nets. (the mere threat of fanatics will cause your opponent to adjust his battle strategy)

Actually, Fanatics would be easy to fit in in a 700pt list: I could drop both BOrc units, take two 30-man units with nets (as well as three fanatics each!), and still have a hundred-or-two points to spare.

greenbay924 wrote:hey just aren't that competitive.

I've noticed. I like them for a few reasons myself (can be dead-killy on the charge, especially with another character, are not plagued by animosity, can essentially get 8+D6" charges once per game, actual bear armor saves, and so on), but they're less "super" units than they are "anti-core". I can run them against most non-Chaos army's core choices and shred them apart without issue, but once their own special / rare troops are brought into the equation I'm lucky without magical support to get a draw.

greenbay924 wrote:Night goblins with nets are almost as resilient (outside of leadership and animosity) and cost a fraction of the points.

Ah yes, good ol' Night Goblins. I've had them blunt six-wide Chaos Warrior unit (by practically the only person in my GW besides me to realize the 5 is a minimum, not a maximum) myself, due to numbers and nets. Netters are amazing, so long as you don't roll a 1. If you combine it with low-rolling Fanatics (forcing the enemy to park themselves on top to complete a charge, thus ensuring a solid 2D6 pre-emptive S5 hits), you can really take on a lot of units and force a draw / minor loss each turn.

greenbay924 wrote:I'd always put your big bosses on boars, the extra armor save will really help (especially in challenges) and it adds another Str 5 attack on the charge.

Normally, that lord would be placed on a Boar. It's funny how many people seem to think 1+ saves are limited to non-Orc armies. Pretty much every game wherein I had to roll a save for my lord, my opponent's asked how I got a 1+ save.

greenbay924 wrote:The magic defense will be a big problem, but it's a problem every orc general has to deal with, so we usually just learn to adapt.

My current magic defense is pretty much the most I can eke out and remain effective: When I add more Shamans, I need to upgrade levels and also either need to drop a combat-BOrc (meaning less effective at winning combat with units) or a Battle Standard Bearer (meaning I need to make due with - after modifications - a leadership that's always at best 8).

greenbay924 wrote:Overall, your list isn't bad, if you don't want to waste your time with painting more models, you should be ok.

Thanks. And frankly, I was pondering Night Goblins in terms of competitiveness as opposed to Black Orcs (people will go crazy over Fanatics and sometimes use up four-or-more power dice just to kill individual ones - four dice that aren't being spent on attacking your R&F units).

greenbay924 wrote:Use that wyvern to try and get the enemy's magic off the table asap. Against VC, that will be a problem as their magic users are usually burried in units. Use that terror to max affect.

While I have a lot of attacks, unfortunately - unless I can coincide with another unit to provide static-res - I cannot make frontal charges and still expect to win. Flank, I'll quickly force someone like a VC player to suddenly start spending dice keeping their general's unit alive. Front, I need to get too many wounds (6 out of a base of 7 attacks) to win. Not that it's a problem in the exceptions to this (Ancient Stegadons crumble when hit by that character and he's only on a boar, let alone a Wyvern with immunity to terror and an extra 3 S6 attacks).

greenbay924 wrote:Flee with the black orcs...hear me out. This will throw your opponent way off. If you set it up so that you have a unit in flanking position, wait for your opponent to charge your black orcs, and instead of staying to fight, flee back and catch him with his pants down, as I doubt they will have expected that. With Ld 8 and a musician, they should rally easily enough, and you just exposed your opponent's flank when they weren't planning on it.

The flee tactic has worked well with me in WHFB... when the dice gods don't hate me. You have no idea how poor I am at rolling leadership: You can almost expect me to roll an average of an eleven before-modifiers unless the unit I'm rolling for is base-leadership 6 or less (Ex: My Clan Eshin army. Triad would always, always fail leadership. Night Runners would bugger off maybe once or twice / game).

greenbay924 wrote:Don't try to stand toe to toe. Orcs are good in combat, but most armies have units that are better, don't try to stand toe to toe with those units. What I mean is, against their elite units, orcs will beat up on normal humans/elves/rats just fine. But Black Guard, Stormvermin, chaos knights/warriors, black knights, temple guard, etc...are better at close combat, so try and be "extra sneaky" against them. (Like using the black orc flee thing I said above).

It's part of my use of my Spider Riders, too. If you consider the following text a line-up of units:
_
\
—

Top line is my enemy, the slash is a Spider Rider unit, the bottom line is one of my R&F blocks. My enemy will, often, charge the Spider Riders looking to get an easy 84pts, or just ignore them thinking they've seen through my trap. However, if they do charge, they have now exposed their flank if they fail to run the spiders down, and should they succeed in pushing the spiders back they either must pursue (due to Hatred, for instance) or it's best to choose such - thus rendering them out of the game for at least one more turn - due to the fact that they'll face a flank-charge should they restrain.

The Black Orcs, however, is an even better trick: Very few people expect 300+ units to flee as a charge reaction, especially if said unit is still mostly / completely intact.

greenbay924 wrote:Anyway, that's all for now.

Thanks for the advice. If I were to replace the BOrc units...

30 Night Goblins 220pts
Nets
Musician
Standard Bearer
Boss
x3 Fanatics

30 Night Goblins 250pts
Spears
Nets
Musician
Standard Bearer
Boss
x3 Fanatics

This, right there, is 470pts. BOrcs are 709. I'm left with 239 points to spend, with that many Gobbos, after their swap with the BOrcs.

I could throw in the Squig Herds (possibly even a final Herd added, bringing it to four meaning 120pts for a Static-3 CR block with 10 WS4 S5 attacks to the front), still leaving points left over. However, I could also, at essentially the cost of a goblin, throw in 4-6 Trolls, 40 Orc Arrers, or another two - albeit sans fanatics and nets - Night Goblin units Any of such sound good to you?

Others who are reading this thread: Do you agree with his above assessment on the removal of the Black Orcs, or - in the very least - the swapping out for a bunch of Night Goblins w/ Fanatics? If not, do you have your own ideas you'd suggest to me?

I wouldn't go with three fanatics, I find the sweet number to be two per unit.

Good points about the big'uns, but I would not combine defense with offense. If you intend to use your Big'Uns as offense, put the spirit totem in something you're going to use defensively. I usually give my battle standard the totem, park him in a unit of 25 orcs or 30 night goblins (no upgrades except for maybe nets/standard), and keep them behind the main force, that way the units can still get the reroll. Near the end of the game (turn 5 roughly) I use this unit to grab a spare table quarter, or contest one my opponent might have. Your opponent won't waste much effort on the unit since it will have other baddies in its face.

Removing the Black orcs does bring up a problem about not having any hammer units. A quick fix would be to get two units of trolls, though with your general on wyvern, they won't be able to do much if they are outside his leadership range. I like chariots for this, even goblin chariots work well with supporting anvil squads. I like the squig idea, a block of 4 herds will cause enough concern for your opponent, they might actually waste fire on it to try and "pop" it in your zone (which isn't a big deal since D6 S5 hits per squad is nothing for OnG) and keeps fire off your others. These little buggers have gone toe to toe with a lot before and came out on top.

Maybe tone down the big un unit it to 3x6 with banner of butchery, save some more points and works great as a hammer unit. I would really recommend getting some boar chariots, or boar riders on the list. Savage orc boar riders w/ spears are cheap, and can dish out the pain. I usually run them two different ways:

#1:
Savage Orc Boar Boyz x6 - Big'Uns, spears, standard, Banner of Butchery - 225

--on the charge, that's 12 attacks at WS 3 Str 5 and 18 attacks at WS 4 Str 5 (when using banner, 12 attacks when not)

#2:
Savage Orc Boar Boyz x6 - spears - 138

--on the charge, that's 12 attacks at WS 3 Str 5 and 12 attacks at WS 3 Str 4.

Both provide lots of hitting for little points. Once again, comes down to if you have the models. The downside to them is they only get a 5+/6+ save, so if your enemy is scared enough, they will target them (but then again, for so little points, it can keep other things clean, like your warboss)

This really makes me want to play fantasy again....hehe

(also, don't waste points on night goblin bosses or musicians, especially bosses, night goblins aren't meant to deal wounds, just win combat resolution)

Minsc wrote:I'm thinking to expand / modify the list somewhat for a 2500pt in-store tournament. The only limitations to the list are: No more than 1 Scroll / Army, and one extra Core Slot requirement (High Elves need three, all other armies four).

Is this for the GW North American tournament at the end of February (I think it's the 27th/28th)? I'm just curious because it has these exact same restrictions. I'm going to be getting ready for it, too

Cheers,
Steve / RiTides

greenbay924 wrote:I wouldn't go with three fanatics, I find the sweet number to be two per unit.

Three and two each work well, the advantage of three for me being that it greatly increases the odds of an initial fanatic either:
A) Going far enough to hit the enemy unit (should I want to hit them immediately).
B) Going just far enough to force the enemy to stop their charge or take 2D6 S5 hits.

greenbay924 wrote:Good points about the big'uns, but I would not combine defense with offense. If you intend to use your Big'Uns as offense, put the spirit totem in something you're going to use defensively.

Which, unfortunately, is not too many O&G units (Goblins are the best bet, but then I need to put it on my BSB).

greenbay924 wrote:I usually give my battle standard the totem, park him in a unit of 25 orcs or 30 night goblins (no upgrades except for maybe nets/standard), and keep them behind the main force, that way the units can still get the reroll.

The only two units I have that qualify for this are either a mob of Orc Arrer Boyz (in which case they're T4 and got a 24" range, but gobble up a lot of points for what they'll do in the battle) or 30 Night Goblin Arrers (which are 30-big and have short bows... but are a significant range decrease, have no armor, and are really a waste of it being a Standard on a BOrc who's never using his WS6).

greenbay924 wrote:Near the end of the game (turn 5 roughly) I use this unit to grab a spare table quarter, or contest one my opponent might have. Your opponent won't waste much effort on the unit since it will have other baddies in its face.

That's the plan, anyways.

greenbay924 wrote:Removing the Black orcs does bring up a problem about not having any hammer units. A quick fix would be to get two units of trolls, though with your general on wyvern, they won't be able to do much if they are outside his leadership range.

They also have the problem that, against R&F, they're worse than Black Orcs. Black Orcs w/ the Banner of Butchery are slightly superior to Trolls due to WS4, as well as having both a standard (+1 Res) and Ranks (+1-+3, depending on their current size). I could stuff a character on a boar into them, to my knowledge, or a Goblin on a Wolf / Gigantic Spider, but that has its own problems (sucking heroes out of a unit to provide leadership alone).

greenbay924 wrote:I like chariots for this, even goblin chariots work well with supporting anvil squads.

If I could, I'd snag a Gobbo Chariot if only for when fighting Daemons: Ulag's Akrit Axe + Tricksy Trinket = an average of 6-8 no-ward-save S5 hits.

I also miss taking two Wolf Chariots in one special slot. :( Why can't we have the nice things?

greenbay924 wrote:I like the squig idea, a block of 4 herds will cause enough concern for your opponent, they might actually waste fire on it to try and "pop" it in your zone (which isn't a big deal since D6 S5 hits per squad is nothing for OnG) and keeps fire off your others. These little buggers have gone toe to toe with a lot before and came out on top.

Humorously, Squigs are also wonderfully priced for what they do. When you cut the Goblins out of the equation, each Squig - an A2, S5, WS4, ItP, Hating Dwarf unit - costs only 8pts. 8 points! They're cheaper than a vanilla Big 'Un.

greenbay924 wrote:Maybe tone down the big un unit it to 3x6 with banner of butchery, save some more points and works great as a hammer unit. I would really recommend getting some boar chariots, or boar riders on the list. Savage orc boar riders w/ spears are cheap, and can dish out the pain.

I've been tempted to get Boar Riders for years now, but I'll probably never get any. They're, well, too expensive (money wise) for my taste, and the "cheaper" Boar Boyz just don't make the cut whilst lacking Frenzy. If I didn't have to pay around $76 for 6 of them, I'd probably get a bunch. As it stands, Chariots are about the only replacement that're within my budget.

greenbay924 wrote:(also, don't waste points on night goblin bosses or musicians, especially bosses, night goblins aren't meant to deal wounds, just win combat resolution)

I take the musicians as many times before they've rallied the unit and prevented total loss. Similarly, I take bosses because I can - often - declare a challenge to tie up a big bad for a turn. Plus, there's always the fun stuff like the one time my Night Goblin Boss challenged a Plague Bearer champion (who struck first), survived, then killed said Champion.

If I dropped two Fanatics - one from each unit - I'd have 289 points to spare. If I then dropped Martog's Best Basha, seven Big 'Uns, and then put the Spirit Totem on the BSB, and then putting my two BOrcs on boars, I'd be ahead 349 to spend on stuff. Not having the money to spend on Boar Boyz right now, I could, er, put the Black Orcs back in, but drop three-to-five? Add 8 or 5 Trolls (depending on if they're upgraded)? Put in the Squigs, then try filling points out with left over Arrers of Orc & Goblin stature?

Grah, a first for me: Having more points than I know what to do with.

EDIT: I believe it is for the North American Tournament. All armies entered in must also be fully painted, as well as fully based.

Yep, that's it! Sweet... Awesome to see other people getting prepared for it

You should not be sending trolls straight up into rank and file, they're job is to combi-charge with a unit of goblins or orcs...who provide the ranks and standard. If you can keep them close to your boss, they make great support.

I've had some success running a unit of 12 Black Orcs bare bones. Use them to dual charge with other units, and they usually can cause havoc on anything, using those nice goblins to give them the rank and standard bonuses.

Having too many points usually happens with orcs, never a bad thing though. The simplest solution I can offer is grab some boar chariots, the speed helps a lot for flank charging to assist your other unit's charging.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat with the boar riders, I traded away/sold my old metal boar riders with the plans of buying new models from GW, and just have never gotten around to it...

greenbay924 wrote:You should not be sending trolls straight up into rank and file, they're job is to combi-charge with a unit of goblins or orcs...who provide the ranks and standard. If you can keep them close to your boss, they make great support.

The problem being, as I mentioned, that people in my GW tend not to realize that 5-wide is the minimum for ranks. They tend to act as though it's the maximum, meaning I'll only get two trolls in at best with the Goblins / Boyz, three if I can clip with the goblins only having one model in full base-to-base. 6 WS3 S5 or 2 S5 no-save hits are only going to provide minimal combat resolution points.

If people realized they could hold wider frontages, I'd be better off.

greenbay924 wrote:I've had some success running a unit of 12 Black Orcs bare bones. Use them to dual charge with other units, and they usually can cause havoc on anything, using those nice goblins to give them the rank and standard bonuses.

The Black Orcs suffer a similar problem, but are slightly better off in that you are WS4 and can - due to their lack of Stupidity & Animosity - maneuver them more readily to a flank to hit someone in the flank after they charge / get tied up by some Gobbos.

greenbay924 wrote:Having too many points usually happens with orcs, never a bad thing though. The simplest solution I can offer is grab some boar chariots, the speed helps a lot for flank charging to assist your other unit's charging.

I could repair one that I have in my bitz box. Most of my chariots had been cannibalized (I could, theoretically, have three right now) due to:
1) Building Boar-Mounted Characters (First army box essentially had this done with its boars). It means I have a grand total of 4 models on boars ATM (1 with Spear, 2 with Swords, 1 with a Great Weapon converted literally weeks before 7th Edition rolled around and GW became +1 Strength-only weapons when mounted).
2) Conversions. I attempted, back when I should have known better, to make the Troll Chariot-Thrower model in a WD issue from way back. That lost me one Chariot's frame. Another was lost - due to being unable to find my Boars at the time - from me converting a Snotling Pump Wagon, thinking "Well, if I can't find the boars, might as well put the Chariot to use".
3) Breaking apart and being poorly assembled having been bought off a newbie for dirt cheap (I did, however, get the old Battalion w/ Archers and Boyz, missing only a half-dozen infantry models, for about $45 then).

So, I can kinda field a Boar Chariot, but in addition to the Squigs that sucks up my remaining Special slots.

greenbay924 wrote:Yeah, I'm in the same boat with the boar riders, I traded away/sold my old metal boar riders with the plans of buying new models from GW, and just have never gotten around to it...

Well, at least their prices are going down by the year right? Plus, we can always look forward to Plastic Boar Boyz

RiTides wrote:Yep, that's it! Sweet... Awesome to see other people getting prepared for it

I kinda have to start now - the more time I wait, the more models I'll have to paint in a lesser amount of time. Though it is, at least, giving me a drive to work on my army - today I painted more models than I normally do in a month, and today was barely adhering to the models painted / day schedule I set up. Luckily, a shift from BOrcs to Gobbos is pretty much beneficial to my army building: While I'm painting more models now (almost twice as much), they're easier, smaller, and require much less detail (new Black Orcs + highlighting models = pure evil). BOrcs aren't quite as bad as Chaos Warriors when it comes to manual highlighting, but they're close.

Hm, something to point out:

Going through my list, I found that - removing the general's Wyvern and the cheaper (330) point Black Orc unit, and replacing such with a Boar for the 'Boss, a Boar for each of the two Big Bosses, and adding a pair of 30 NG units (one w/ spears, three fanatics, and nets, the other hand weapons, three fanatics, and nets, full command each) is within my points limit (leaving me 6pts to spare, actually - enough for the Collar of Zorga on the BSB, if I so desired, or on the Shaman / Gnashas Boss). Considering that I could also drop the O&G Shaman to a Night Goblin shaman (saving me another 15pts), I could instead use the 21 points spared to add on a +1 Strength Magic Weapon (or a generic spear and then even more fluff like a Talisman of Protection for the BSB) for Mr. Gnashas.

Does the replacement of the BOrcs and Wyvern - possibly the downgrade of the Shaman as well - look like a valid choice in with the above, while still keeping the original Black Orc unit (thus preserving a Hammer / Anvil unit)? In the very least, could it probably work if I don't have the chance to expand my model selection?

Not a bad idea. I don't like spears on NGs though, I usually just give em shields (can't remember if they come with em or not) but yeah it gives you more units, actually protects your warboss better, as you can stick him in a unit and he can't be singled out by missile fire, and you can still keep atleast one unit of Borcs.

greenbay924 wrote:Not a bad idea. I don't like spears on NGs though, I usually just give em shields (can't remember if they come with em or not) but yeah it gives you more units, actually protects your warboss better, as you can stick him in a unit and he can't be singled out by missile fire, and you can still keep atleast one unit of Borcs.

Well, right now the Spears are only there for WYSIWYG purposes - if the staff at my GW say "We don't mind, you can count them as just hand weapons" for the tournament, then I'm better off. It'd leave me about 34 points to spare, which could be spent on either:
1) Magic Weapon / Spear for Mr. Gnashas.
2) Magic Amulet / something for Mr. BSB.
3) Flanker Squig Herd (only one herd big, though).
4) Minor Goblin Unit-size increase (10-11 more NG's with HW&S).

Shields are the standard for Night Goblins - Night Goblins have Hand Weapon & Shield, Common Goblins have Hand Weapon & Light Armor. Options are to replace shields with bows, or take spears (You always have your Hand Weapon, as this was before you were given the option to replace a hand weapon with [x]).