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Hi there, forum!

Ok, so I'm one of those pesky "build whatever catches my fancy" type of gamers. As a result I have, on the side of my more planned forces, a whole bunch of almost-finished Guardsmen that I would like to do something with, seeing as how my main projects are nearing completion.

Now, it's been a while since I've been in the loop regarding guardsmen so when I picked up the new codex I had some problems making heads or tails of it. I could use your help putting something halfway decent together from what I have. I tried to apply the most fitting entry on the models I have.

This is what I have:

- 1 Commander -Magneted: Power fist or CCW in Right Hand, Storm Bolter or Laspistol in left.
- 30 veterans. Sort of on the bordder of being in Carapace Armour, I guess. 3 has voxes, 2 have Powerfists, 1 has Powersword and hellpistol(Thinking about using him as Bastonne, maybe?). 9 guys built for special weapons, although these are not added yet, thinking about maybe using magnets again. I have some really cool heavy flamer models I would love to use, if those are any good?
- 30 Penal Legionnares - I was really psyched that these acctually had an entry in this codex, I had just planned on using Conscripts as penal legionnares in the last ed. Are Penal Legionnares any good now?
- 2 Chimeras w/ multi-lasers.
- 10 Rough Riders w/ Hunting Lances

The goal would be to have a 1750 army. I guess the above would add up to a lot less. I generally play against mechanized Death Guard and Imperial Guard. I'm mostly after having an army that's cool-looking and interesting to play with, so if it's possible to avoid too much direct repitition that would be great.

Looking forward to any feedback!

(Just to clarify, Im not really asking you guys to write me a list, point-by-point. More, y'know, point me in the right direction.)

As far as models listed. Some heavy support would be advised. Leman Russ variants artillery. Gunships look to be popular. I haven't used the new codex yet, but I have kept up with a lot of the game for them. Blobs of regular infantry are popular. Combining the regular guard squads into one big blob of men. I'd say just read through the Guard lists posted and see what people are advising there.

Blobs of infantry are good in several ways, but none of them really seem to apply to your models. Mechvets seem to be more what would benefit your list.

Heavy flamers... eh I don't think they are worth x4 the cost of a regular flamer for the +1 S and -1AP.

Rough riders are not really competitive, in my experience, but they sure are fun! I'd definitely use them, if just for the heck of it.

Penal legionnaires are again a fluffy choice, due to them being somewhat irregular and inconsistent. Random abilities have never sit well with me. They are definitely better than conscripts though.

You have some more models to buy before you can field any sort of competitive army, but I bet you could do some really fun stuff with what you have. Just crack open the codex and go to work, man!

Mechanized Veterans would probably suit my style, acctually. I like the smaller mobile forces over the large and static ones, in general.

I've been reading through the codex some more, and I think I've got some ideas. And some questions. In no particular order:

- Is Carapace worth having on Mechanized Veterans? Seems to me like it could be good to protect your investments against Bolter fire and Overheats?
- Mogul Kamir. Yes? No?
- Bastonne and 9 veterans with 2 Meltas and 1 flamer in a Valkyrie with the Multiple Rocket Pods. I was thinking that they could blast forward early on to take out threatening artillery and soften/tie up lightly armoured targets. Would that be a good idea?
- Is the Melta-hellhound worth having, or should I invest in a Vendetta instead? Or another Valkyrie?
- The Punisher seems to me to be just about the coolest thing ever. I'll probably get one just for the look of it. Should it have the tank commander special caracter to boost to BS4?
- Is the Leman Russ Battle Tank still the undisputed champion of the HS slot, or is there acctually something else which I could use more?
- Personally I think the random abilites of Penal Legionnares could be sort of cool. Maybe not awsome, but cool. I guess that if I take them, an Astropath would be sort of something I would have to have?
- I have no idea what to do with the HQ commander. Give him a Powerfist and some bodyguards? Standard? Vox? I guess I'll stick him in a chimera to be safe, but sooner of later he would have to join the fray, right?

Any help would be appreciated, I aim at having a list put together before the end of the week, at least.

Pask Punisher? 1 Higher BS means 3.3 more hits, 2.2 more wounds against MEQ and 0.74 kill in one turn. But with a range of 24', there won't be many chances to fire.

Just give the CCS some meltaguns or plasmaguns and stick them into a chimera, and they could work well.

Many mechvet lists take advantage of the CCS's orders and BS4 by giving them meltas or plasma and putting them in a chim or valk - they pretty much get the job done with BiD and BS4. People are pretty meh on PF's for guard around here - the five models aren't enough to make sure it sticks around. I use a standard in my hybrid list, but don't see it in too many mech lists.

I think you got the basis of a good list - sixty scoring squishies is nice. If you got the valk, you'd have 3 transports. Leave the PL's and one vet squad on foot - I'd say Bastonne, he has orders to make him more mobile and survivable.

The only thing about carapace in a transport is that it's a bit of a waste 'till you get out.

Although HF's do seem extravagent given you can have four regulars, if you have cool models for them you should give them a try. I'd like to know how they perform, it just seems like a nasty weapon to lay down on infantry.

Skip Mogul Kamir - although he's a beast in the assault phase, his "Rage" USR makes it tough to use that first all-important lance charge on the right target.

Thanks guys!

You've been so helpful that I decided to get a version of a list done tonight already. I've been flipping through the Codex and I've come up with something that doesn't feel all too run-of-the-mill to me:

HQ: 190
105 Company Commander, Vox-Caster, 2 Veterans w/ Plasma Guns, Carapace Armour
30 Astropath
55 Chimera Dedicated Transport, Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer

Troops: 835
130 Veterans, Carapace, 3 Meltaguns
60 Sergant Bastonne
(In Valkyrie)

145 Veterans, Carapace, 3 Plasmaguns, Vox-Caster
55 Chimera Dedicated Transport, Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer

145 Veterans, Carapace, 3 Plasmaguns, Vox-Caster
55 Chimera Dedicated Transport, Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer

80 Penal Legion Squad
80 Penal Legion Squad
80 Penal Legion Squad

Fast Attack: 255
125 10 Rough Riders, 2 Meltaguns
130 Valkyrie, Multiple Rocket Pods (Bastonne's Transport)

Heavy Support: 470
200 Leman Russ Exterminator, Knight Commander Pask
135 Medusa
135 Medusa

What do you guys think? I decided to take an Exterminator with Pask instead, for AV12-hunting. I opted for the Medusa tanks to bring the pie, 'cause the Battle Tanks and Demolishers felt a bit generic, and artillery is cool.

Overarching plan is to sweep up early on to take out the biggest and baddest tank with Bastonne and his squad. I'm not gonna lie to you men, this mission has low chances of survival. Penal Legionnares Outflank and see what they're able to do once they're on the field. The Commander and the two Veteran squads in their transports drive up the middle field to get to the fray while providing some cover for the Rough Riders. The Rough Riders charge something, and if they're still alive afterwards they hunt some tanks. Or the other way around if that seems like a better idea.

Dealing with large, weak-armoured hordes would be more or less up to my transports with their flamers and the Multiple Missile Pods. Might be a weak point. Also, I don't really have any really long-range weapons, but in my experience 48" of firing line is rare.

But I don't know, what do you think?

Vetinari wrote:HQ: 190
105 Company Commander, Vox-Caster, 2 Veterans w/ Plasma Guns, Carapace Armour
30 Astropath
55 Chimera Dedicated Transport, Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer

Carapace armor is a waste if you are inside a Chimera. Vox networks are also a tough sell in most armies. Orders as cool as they can be, really will never make or break your list. They only affect 1 squad, and you will most likely pass. Getting a reroll on something that only affects 1 squad, and generally isn't needed, and only makes that one squad slightly better at something it was doing already... there is simply other things you can do with so many points. Considering that you can give orders from a Chimera, but cannot recieve orders inside a Chimera... it is even more pointless in your army. Astropath seems like a waste, as most of your army isn't outflanking, and probably won't be deploying in reserve. The only outflankers you have are penal legionaries, and frankly I am probably going to tell you not to take those anyway.

Vetinari wrote:Troops: 835
130 Veterans, Carapace, 3 Meltaguns
60 Sergant Bastonne
(In Valkyrie)

Bastonne doesn't add enough to a squad to be worth his points, unless maybe if this was a lone ranger squad acting way far forward. This is exactly what you have here. Now, my actual probablem with this squad is simply that, it is a really expensive squad... for a suicide squad. Understand that enemies can assault 12" in a turn (6" move, 6" assault). Some armies can go even further than that. Now realize that IG are probably the worst melee army, along with Tau. If you end up in melee, you lose. Melta fires at 12". You can't fire from the transport. You have to stand there, at 12" to fire this weapon. Basically means you get a few kills, or blow up a tank... and the next turn, you lose the squad. This squad is way too expensive for that. Especially in the IG army... where you probably have about 100 different S9 and S10 weapons you can use at range to blow up vehicles. Give Bastonne an autocannon and GLs and get him some nice cover near an objective... and use him to hold that ground. Carapace is crap. Cover is beautiful mistress. Just about every cover in the game is worth 4+, including standing behind other infantry... which you have plenty of. Why buy 4+ armor, when you can just stand near a tree and get a free 4+ cover. What do you think is more common? AP4 or templates that can hit you from 4' away... where you should be staying?

Vetinari wrote:145 Veterans, Carapace, 3 Plasmaguns, Vox-Caster
55 Chimera Dedicated Transport, Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer

145 Veterans, Carapace, 3 Plasmaguns, Vox-Caster
55 Chimera Dedicated Transport, Multi-Laser and Heavy Flamer

Again carapace is a waste of points. Rest of this is ok. Heavy Flamers on Chimera are ok, but you can shoot ML and HBs at the same range... and don't have to drive your transports up to 9" in order to shoot your enemy.

Vetinari wrote:80 Penal Legion Squad
80 Penal Legion Squad
80 Penal Legion Squad

WIthout access to powerweapons, or powerfist... these guys are only good at taking out low toughness, low armor foes... basically no one. (Unless you get lucky and get rending, but still.) There are better places to spend 240pts. If you REALLY want to get into melee, I recommend Creed or another Hero that can give bonuses to melee.

Vetinari wrote:Fast Attack: 255
125 10 Rough Riders, 2 Meltaguns

Oddly enough, these guys don't look half bad.

Vetinari wrote:130 Valkyrie, Multiple Rocket Pods (Bastonne's Transport)

Nice vehicle.

Vetinari wrote:Heavy Support: 470
200 Leman Russ Exterminator, Knight Commander Pask
135 Medusa
135 Medusa

Pask is sorta a waste. Especially on the Exterminator. Look at the stats for a Hydra, then the Exterminator... realize the Hydra is half the price, and does it twice as good. Then don't take the Exterminator. Rest is fine.

The Carapace thing is more of a model thing. The models I have could probably pass as having a 5+ save in a pinch, but my penal legionnares are entirely unarmored, so having the same armour value on both would be really, really wierd.

The voxes are a bit meh, I can understand that. On the other hand, they add up to a grand total of 15 points, so they really oughtn't make or brake the list.

The Penal Legionnionares are once more a bit of a model thing. I have 30 models with lasguns and a very frayed/poory equipped look compared to the rest of my dudes, so I really can't think of anything else to do with them. I'm not really expecting them to do all that much except doing some harrasing and contest objectives, I guess.

I agree that Bastonne's squad is very expensive for what it does. What would you suggest I do about this? Being an ex-mech tau player, I think I'd have a fair chance of lining up a skimmer-wall-thing to protect them from 12" charges for a turn at least, but at the end of the day I'd probably keep them back unless I was pretty sure that they'd pull their weight. They wouldn't really need to kill something worth their points if they remove a threat to something else in my army that is more vital to the game in question.

Should I relplace the Exterminator with a Hydra, or some other Leman Russ tank? I'm not really sure what I need more.

I'd keep bastonne in a chimera and at range with plasma, to keep him alive longer and those orders rocking.

Vetinari wrote:The Carapace thing is more of a model thing. The models I have could probably pass as having a 5+ save in a pinch, but my penal legionnares are entirely unarmored, so having the same armour value on both would be really, really wierd.

If WYSIWYG is really important to you, you are going to be sorely disappointed with this game. More than half the models available to players in the rules are not provided by games workshop. Same goes for gear and options. It is wholely up to you, but making your lists less effective because of modeling limitations seems foolish. Also, a 5+ armor save doesn't have to mean that the shot was stopped by an armor plate. It could also be the model's natural ability to dodge shots, or maybe he is simply a really tough guy who can take a couple of bullets before he actually dies. You can roleplay a lot of things for stuff like that... but what you can't roleplay is an effective list, if you don't write one. Not to say that armor is going to make or break you, but every little bit adds up.

Vetinari wrote:The voxes are a bit meh, I can understand that. On the other hand, they add up to a grand total of 15 points, so they really oughtn't make or brake the list.

You are playing the Holy Emperor's IG my friend. We are a cheap list. 15pts can be any number of things, a powerfist, a heavy weapon, 3 special weapons, or upgrades from one weapon to another, a tank option... etc etc. Trust me, you can find something better to do with those points.

Vetinari wrote:The Penal Legionnionares are once more a bit of a model thing. I have 30 models with lasguns and a very frayed/poory equipped look compared to the rest of my dudes, so I really can't think of anything else to do with them. I'm not really expecting them to do all that much except doing some harrasing and contest objectives, I guess.

Again, you can do any number of things with your models to make them match your list... but you have to start with the rules, and writing a good list. You can fluff anything, except the rules.

Vetinari wrote:I agree that Bastonne's squad is very expensive for what it does. What would you suggest I do about this? Being an ex-mech tau player, I think I'd have a fair chance of lining up a skimmer-wall-thing to protect them from 12" charges for a turn at least, but at the end of the day I'd probably keep them back unless I was pretty sure that they'd pull their weight. They wouldn't really need to kill something worth their points if they remove a threat to something else in my army that is more vital to the game in question.

I really like Bastonne for moving as a lone squad. He is good if you give him a nice set of weapons. He can BiD! and FomT! He also auto regroups, which is the last order available. If you give him an AC and 3 GL, you can take a bird up to some objective somewhere on a flank, and he can jump out and hold it for a whole game if you are smart about it. From there, he can BiD his squad and unload on vehicle's side armor, or he can FomT! and deny cover to enemies trying to hide from his AC fire. He can be a powerful asset, you just have to play him right. Also, forward sentries is a big plus to that squad, gives them a little more bite in melee, if they get assaulted, and Bastonne himself isn't to bad in a CC. More importantly, it gives them +1 cover, which if you are hiding out somewhere in on an objective... the extra cover helps you to not get killed as your opponent trys to take you off your objective. If you can't use him for what he does best, working in a squad far away from your normal CCS, then he's too expensive to bring.

Vetinari wrote:Should I relplace the Exterminator with a Hydra, or some other Leman Russ tank? I'm not really sure what I need more.

You have a good amount of anti tank, and anti-MEQ. You don't really NEED anything, but you could get a Hydra in there, which will free up some points elsewhere. The problem with the Hydra idea is that you would have no Av14 in the list if you did that. I would probably recommend just a regular Russ.

murdog wrote:I'd keep bastonne in a chimera and at range with plasma, to keep him alive longer and those orders rocking.

Can't give orders to squads embarked in Chimera.

True. But they can help him move around and stay alive long enough to get to the position you need him to be in. I agree with the lone squad thing, tho. He works on foot too.

Oooh, I like the idea with the AC and the Grenade Launchers. I've always been a fan of Grenade Launchers, I like the idea of being able to choose between blasts and single-shots. Mainly because, like I said, I mainly play against Death Guard and IG, so versatility is good. Could the Missile Launcher replace the Autocannon on that note? 3 GL and one Missile Launcher seems like it could be very versatile. And fun. >

And maybe I should then move the meltaguns to another squad, so I have 1 plasma-squad, 1 melta-squad and 1 with Bastonne and the 3 GL?

By "Regular Russ" do you mean the Battle Tank?

If you look at the numbers, ML pretty much sucks. Mortar has the same frag blast, but it is barrage, so it ignores some cover, LoS, and pins, and is 10pts cheaper. AC has two shots, and a similar strength, so is more effective against light armor and infantry and is 5pts cheaper. Lascannon has best strength, and can actually pen Av14 and only 5pts more. With only 1 shot, you really don't want to be screwing around with a S8 weapon that you are going to miss with half the time, and only score a glancing hit 1/6 times.

The ML's versatility masks the fact that it is less effective, and more expensive than its other heavy weapon counterparts.

The GL on the other hand, is mostly good for the fact that it is only 5pts, is an assault weapon, and is S6 AP4. This is remarkably powerful. The S3 AP- blast frag grenade is useful is very very limited situations, only against hordes with Sv6+ or no armor saves... otherwise the higher strength and AP will always produce more wounds, even if just with one shot.

Russ = LRBT
[Variant Name] = That variant