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Title basically says it all. In the 5th Edition metagame (and assuming around 1850), do Marines need units such as TH/SS Termies in LRs to counter other deathstars or are those points better spent on a more distributed approach?

It works, but it isn't necessary.

I've seen these two lists square off at my FLGS:

List 1 (IIRC)

Lysander
7 TH/SS Terminators
Land Raider Crusader
2 Tac Squads w/ Lascannon, Powerfist, Flamer, 1 with a Rhino and 1 with a TL-las Razorback
2 Vindicators
Land Speeder Typhoon

List 2 (again..IIRC)

Captain, Power sword
5 Tac Squads, ML, Flamer, Rhino
2 10 man Assault Squads, PF, Melta bombs
3 Land Speeder Tyhpoon Squadron

Long story short, List #2 had too many Missile Launchers to handle and too many marines to kill. List #1 got tabled in 5 turns. They rolled to go on but didn't.

Sure List #1 got his deathstar unit into CC with an assault squad...but the assault squad ran and the deathstar unit was isolated from the rest of the army and was shot to pieces. All that was left at the end of the game was Lysander who stayed behind to stall the other Assault squad. He killed that assault squad sure...but then some combat squads moved in and were in good position to finish him off.

How did the second list take out the Land Raider?

Melta bombs...I think I didn't see actually... I just saw the LRC roll up, I turned around, I turned back and the 7 termies were standing in a crater with an assault squad surrounding it. It didn't matter in the long run. The termies got their assault in and even the LRC couldn't kill enough models in another 1-2 rounds of shooting.

I don't think they're absolutely required, but they sure make you more competitive.

My deathstar unit is 5 Assault Terminators (4 x TH/SS, 1 x TLC) plus Vulkan inside a regular Godhammer Land Raider. The sheer amount of flexibility this unit gives me is astounding. When facing an all out assault army I can sit back and snipe transports or MC with the Lascannons and use the Terminators as a counter-assault unit. When facing gunline armies such as Tau or Guard I can use the Land Raider as moving cover for the rest of my army as I advance, then multi-assault infantry/tanks with my Terminators and send Vulkan off to deal with infantry. When facing Horde I can pull the old Grey Knight trick, tank shocking a large squad so they bunch up then decimate them with Vulkans TL heavy flamer.

At best the unit can win games; at worst it will be a distraction while the rest of my army does its thing. Even if the Land Raider does get shot down early, with 3++ saves the unit inside can still survive a stupid amount of shooting.

unbeliever87 wrote:I don't think they're absolutely required, but they sure make you more competitive.

I'd agree to a point, but I'm going to wait and see how the SM player I referenced does at a tournament next month before I concede that tournament viable SM armies need godhammers to be more competitive.

The guy who won best overall at a GT in my state (The Big Waaagh), used 2 Godhammers so I'm not going to discount their effectiveness any time soon.

Lysander + TH/SS Termies in a Land Raider Redeemer will earn you my undying contempt. *pout/angry face*



...Maybe I should start collecting crap that can actually take down a vehichly like that.

Lysander is a deathstar by himself. He's like a Deff Rolla wearing a Storm Shield...

Lysander is nice, but cost and low number of attacks are prob. the balancer to a pretty nice package.

As to the OTopic: No, the Vanilla Marines do not need Land Raiders to be competitive.
Your usage of the resources you take will dictate how competitive the list is, with or without the land raider.

Any other thoughts? I'm trying to retool my army to get away from eggs in basket (Calgar and HG in a Godhammer) and was curious if a more distributed approach was viable.

I was pretty scared the first time a unit of Assault Terminators crashed into a unit of my Tactical Marines. Six Marines later and it occurred to me: Wait a second, he can't do a Sweeping Advance! So what was left of my Tactical Marines backed off, and the Assault Terminators ate hot Plasma Death while the Land Raider got Melta'd.

PS - Godhammer is the pattern of the Lascannons on the Land Raider. The Land Raider itself is "Phobos" pattern.

If you have a unit of 5 TH/SS terminators, they don't really need an IC along with them to increase their "oomph."

I have trouble thinking of a 200 point unit as a "deathstar" despite its ability to crush the snot out of most things in CC.

I think that having a core of two redeemers and 10 TH terminators as a "face smashing" contingent in a marine army is a good way to go, but it's not the only way to go.