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Sorry, i dont have a codex to hand and am having a text arguement with a friend abotu this.

In the wargear entry for CSm it states they have a bolter, a bolt pistol and a CCW. So technically they get 2 attacks basic, right? Coz when you give a marine, for example, a flamer, they still have the 2 CCWs as listed.

Is this the case for SMs as well? or does their wargear say Boltgun OR Bolt pistol and CCW?

His arguement is that althoguh it is technically true, the only way you shoudl get the extra attack for CSm, "in the spirit of the game", is to have the pistol, gun and sword shown on the model (WYSIWYG).

My arguement is that SMs DON'T have this in their wargear and he should just live with it. CSM have been around for thousands of years so you'd think they woudl be abel to switch to a pistol if they need to. Also, i pointed out that every codex has things that are "unfair" to other people. my example as regards to SM was that their LRs carry more, they get the LR-C and LR-R, Chaplains, Orbital Bombardments for captains and ATSKNF. So CSM havign 1 extra attack in CC really isn't game breaking.

Anyway, am i right to fight this point that CSMs get an extra attack as standard ans SM don't? or am i being a d**k?

A standard SM has 1 A on his profile and he is usually "born" with a Bolter and a Bolt Pistol.

A standard CSM has 1 A on his profile and he is usually "born" with a Bolter, a Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon.

As you see they are not armed in the same way and any SM player feeling cheated should just get over it and realize that they get other things that CSM don't, and so it is all good.

None of them has "2 attacks basic" and you should endeavour to not think of it like that. It only opens up avenues of misunderstanding.
Just look at the profile, add 1 A if the model is armed with an additional close combat weapon (for example Bolt Pistol and close combat weapon) and add 1 A if the model charges. Easy Peasy.

Yes, you should always WYSIWYG.
No, most normal people aren't too anal about the equipment models come with as standard, only upgrades.

If you really want CSM models to have bolt pistol, bolter and Chainsword before you will "give" them the additional attack, I require that you model Krak AND Frag grenades, at least 7 of each - after all yo could be in combat 7 turns so you need at least one of each?

I hope you see how silly this gets. WYSIWYG is only required for optional equipment. CSM have no option on their basic equipment.

That's what i said and in fact used the exact same grenades example.

I also said that, if they want to ignore the wargear entried because it's "unfair" then all LRs should carry the same number of people as well, for starters.

I ALWAYS use WYSIWYG in terms of special weapons and stuff (including melta bombs when i can). But if i am supposed to model each CSM with a olter, a pstol and a CCW...well there isn't enough room on the models!

Sorry,missed the "his argument" part....

Do they think it is "unfair" that CSM has bolter, bolt pistol and CCW as opposed to the SM bolter and bolt pistol?!?

But that is like saying that is is unfair that Guardsmen have lasguns and CSM has bolter, bolt pistol and CCW.


It is just the way it is. I have no idea where they have gooten the idea that CSM and SM should be armed in a similar way.

You're correct - CSM do have 2 basic attacks due their wargear listings - which I love and my opponent (who has vanilla SM hates!) and normal SM have just the one!

Due to the Bolter, BP and CCW being listed as wargear they are carrying they do not need to be modeled on the miniature

Enjoy

Morls Balls wrote:You're correct - CSM do have 2 basic attacks due their wargear listings -

No, they don't, and you should stop thinking of it like that.

You might as well say; "I always charge, so they have 3 basic attacks". This is equally wrong.
CSM hase 1 basic attack......and then you add any relevant modifiers.

And to add why this is relevant - you have Wych Weapons, as an example, which deny you the bonus for having 2CCW. This is why the bonus is not included in the profile - it would be confusing when you interact with certain items or races.

OK, i see your point about not considering them to have 2 attacks absic.

So the fact is that they always count as having 2 CCWs (even when they are carryign a special/heavy weapon) and thus gain an extra attack - unless the situation demands otherwise (for example - wych weapons).

Assuming the weapon they carry never replaces the bolt pistol - none do, but its worth keeping this in mind and not assuming you get 2A always.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Morls Balls wrote:You're correct - CSM do have 2 basic attacks due their wargear listings -

No, they don't, and you should stop thinking of it like that.

You might as well say; "I always charge, so they have 3 basic attacks". This is equally wrong.
CSM hase 1 basic attack......and then you add any relevant modifiers.

Sorry, my bad.

I didn't mean to endorse the thought of them being base attacks as if they are on their stat line, just that they do get an extra attack for the BP and CCW

WYSIWYG debatably only applies to Characters and certainly only applies to options. ALL CSMs have bolter, BP and CCW you could in theory model them empty handed and they'd still have all this wargear and greandes as they normally have these.

Does you opponent always model 2 different types of grenade on his basic trooper? Heck does he even model a BP on his basic trooper? I seriously doubt it.

CSM have as standard 2 CCWs which means they attack with at least 2 attacks as standard. But they don't have ATSKNF and te other space marine special rules. Now SWs well they are just unfair but hey...

WYSIWYG really depends on the opponent. Even in toury terms, most people are pretty lenient. As long as you stay away from the "I know this guy has a missle launcher, but Im counting it as a Lascannon..." stuff, you should be alright. It SHOULD be all about having a good game. Unfortunately, theres always THAT guy.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Morls Balls wrote:You're correct - CSM do have 2 basic attacks due their wargear listings -

No, they don't, and you should stop thinking of it like that.

You might as well say; "I always charge, so they have 3 basic attacks". This is equally wrong.
CSM hase 1 basic attack......and then you add any relevant modifiers.

Agreed because wargear like the DE Wyche weapons remove the extra attack for having an additional CCW (among other things) but don't effect "basic attacks"

Also, if he was sporting a Power Fist he obviously loses the bonus for having 2 CCWs.

I don't know if anyone touched subject to exactly explain why CSM have 1 attack in profile with the potential for more due to equipment but understand it's one in the profile because for instance, you kit out your chosen with single lightning claws/powerfists/what have you, you would use the single attack as is rules whatnot with those special combat weapons.

This example was the best I could think of, meh.