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Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Valdosta, Georgia

I would like for my fellow dakka reader to discuss about this new character that was added to the new Tyranids Codex

The rules states quoted from the Tyranids Codex: Spirit Leech At the beginning of every Shooting phase including the foe's, every non-vehicle enemy unit within 6' pf the Doom of Malan'tai must take a leadership test on 3D6, If the test is failed the unit suffers a single wound for each point failed, with no armor sav

My question, since this character Spirit Leech is not a Psychic ability and you don't need a LOS or your not targeting a model, does its affect all model regardless in a vehicle or not, must take this leadership test?

Here my thought is this, since all models are assume on the board wether or not the units in a vehicle, they must take this test.

Comments.......

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Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Akron, Ohio

There's already been at least one discussion on this over in YMDC. Unless I'm mistaken, there were proponents on both sides that were adamant about their interpretations.

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Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator





No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.

taking up the mission
Polonius wrote:Well, seeing as I literally will die if I ever lose a game of 40k, I find your approach almost heretical. If we were to play each other in a tournament, not only would I table you, I would murder you, your family, every woman you ever loved and burn down your house. I mean, what's the point in winning if you allow people that don't take the game seriously to live?
 
   
Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Valdosta, Georgia

Regwon wrote:No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.


i have to say that the Doom of Malan'tai does not need a LOS because one you gave a cover save or it targeting you, it just an effect that effect everything in a 6' radius.

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Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator





But you are still trying to measure an effect to a unit to which you cant. You cant measure and effect TO a unit in a transport. It doesnt matter if you dont need to target it specifically, or that it doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that permitts you to use it on a unit embarked in a transport.

taking up the mission
Polonius wrote:Well, seeing as I literally will die if I ever lose a game of 40k, I find your approach almost heretical. If we were to play each other in a tournament, not only would I table you, I would murder you, your family, every woman you ever loved and burn down your house. I mean, what's the point in winning if you allow people that don't take the game seriously to live?
 
   
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver






Are Nid players really that desperate for a handout from under the table, looking for as much twisting of a rule to get a slight edge? This is the 7th guy ask this question TODAY, from Dakka and FLGS.

No. Unit in transport, unit is not actively on the table aside firing weapons from inside. Cannot affect inside the vehicle, you affect the vehicle. End of story. Let's PLEASE put this to rest.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/29 05:19:21


 
   
Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator





Kurgash wrote:Are Nid players really that desperate for a handout from under the table, looking for as much twisting of a rule to get a slight edge? This is the 7th guy ask this question TODAY, from Dakka and FLGS.

No. Unit in transport, unit is not actively on the table aside firing weapons from inside. Cannot affect inside the vehicle, you affect the vehicle. End of story. Let's PLEASE put this to rest.


I wouldnt call this twisting a rule. There is a bit of unclarity in the rules and mrblacksunshine was asking a perfectly legitimate question. Its much better to ask than to play the game incorrectly and people should ask if they are unsure. If people stopped asking rules questions then how would they know? Its also understandable that lots of people are asking this particular questions since the codex is so new. People aren't psychic and if one person know a rule another may not, not without asking that is.

taking up the mission
Polonius wrote:Well, seeing as I literally will die if I ever lose a game of 40k, I find your approach almost heretical. If we were to play each other in a tournament, not only would I table you, I would murder you, your family, every woman you ever loved and burn down your house. I mean, what's the point in winning if you allow people that don't take the game seriously to live?
 
   
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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA

Regwon wrote:No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.



Please read page 66 of the rulebook (under 'Embarking'). Measurements involving the embarked unit are measured TO or from the vehicle's hull.


The ability in question is a special rule. It is not a psychic attack which requires line of sight.

Therefore, by the rules embarked units *are* affected by this ability. This is not twisting the rules, this is what the rules say.

Claiming that the ability wouldn't affect embarked units would be twisting the rules in this particular case (IMHO).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 06:21:22


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Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator





I stand corrected. I really dont know how i missed that

taking up the mission
Polonius wrote:Well, seeing as I literally will die if I ever lose a game of 40k, I find your approach almost heretical. If we were to play each other in a tournament, not only would I table you, I would murder you, your family, every woman you ever loved and burn down your house. I mean, what's the point in winning if you allow people that don't take the game seriously to live?
 
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







yakface wrote:
Regwon wrote:No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.
Please read page 66 of the rulebook (under 'Embarking'). Measurements involving the embarked unit are measured TO or from the vehicle's hull.


The ability in question is a special rule. It is not a psychic attack which requires line of sight.

Therefore, by the rules embarked units *are* affected by this ability. This is not twisting the rules, this is what the rules say.

Claiming that the ability wouldn't affect embarked units would be twisting the rules in this particular case (IMHO).
Yakface is indeed correct.

Of course, that being said, this opens up the can of worms about embarked units taking Morale tests, but nonetheless, it does affect embarked units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 15:08:13


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Made in us
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





Valdosta, Georgia

Gwar! wrote:
yakface wrote:
Regwon wrote:No.

If you are within 6" of a transport, you are within 6" of that vehicle, not the unit inside it. The rules allow you to measure effects from a unit inside a transport, provided there are firepoints or the ability doesnt require LOS. There is nothing in the rules that allows you to measure effects to a unit in a transport. All you, as the opponent, can do is measure effects to the transport itself, which is not effected by the doom of malan'tai's ability.
Please read page 66 of the rulebook (under 'Embarking'). Measurements involving the embarked unit are measured TO or from the vehicle's hull.


The ability in question is a special rule. It is not a psychic attack which requires line of sight.

Therefore, by the rules embarked units *are* affected by this ability. This is not twisting the rules, this is what the rules say.

Claiming that the ability wouldn't affect embarked units would be twisting the rules in this particular case (IMHO).
Yakface is indeed correct.

Of course, that being said, this opens up the can of worms about embarked units taking Morale tests, but nonetheless, it does affect embarked units.


This has been a big problem with ruling and the way we read rules. This ability is not a Morale Test nor does the Fearless apply here has well. All shooting or Psychic shooting must have a LOS and has to target a unit or model. Yakface, does say that Doom ability is not a Psychic power, it affect that always happens. since you dont need a LOS, any units whether or not in a vehcile has to take this test. Becuase all models are assume to be on board. I cannt target a model in vehicle, due to the LOS, Doom does not need a LOS or is he targeting a model.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





A unit can embark onto a vehicle by moving each model to within 2" of its access points in the Movement phase. The whole unit must be able to embark or none of them can. If some models are out of range, the unit may not embark. When the unit embarks, it is removed from the table and placed aside, making a note or otherwise marking that the unit is being transported (we find that placing one of the unit’s models on top of the transport works best!). If any of the models in the transport have abilities that function within a certain range, this range is measured from the vehicle’s hull.


1- The unit is in the transport but the models are removed from the table.

2- "if any of the models in the transport have abilities that function within a certain range, this range is measured from the vehicles hull"

So we have a rule allowing models embarked to measure from the vehicle hull to something.

There actually is no rule in the Rulebook that says you may measure to a unit in a vehicle. If you can quote it and cite where it is be my guest.

Models in transports are unaffected by the Doom of Malan'tai
   
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Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

blaktoof wrote:There actually is no rule in the Rulebook that says you may measure to a unit in a vehicle. If you can quote it and cite where it is be my guest.


P.66, Second Column, Second Paragraph (the one under embarking), Last Sentence.
   
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in my rulebook it only says

". If any of the models in the transport have abilities that function within a certain range, this range is measured from the vehicle’s hull."

in that spot.

nothing about measuring to models in a vehicle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 15:58:55


 
   
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mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:This has been a big problem with ruling and the way we read rules. This ability is not a Morale Test nor does the Fearless apply here has well.
I never said it was? I was talking about the morale test taken for 25% casualties...

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Palm Beach, FL

Mine (and everyone else's) says: "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.)" Are you using a non-English rulebook?
   
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blaktoof wrote:in my rulebook it only says

". If any of the models in the transport have abilities that function within a certain range, this range is measured from the vehicle’s hull."

in that spot.

nothing about measuring to models in a vehicle.
Haha, funny.

Page 66, Main Heading "Transport Vehicles", Sub-heading "Embarking and Disembarking", Second Sub heading "Embarking", the final sentence of the paragraph, just before the two bullet points, I quote:
"If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 16:08:26


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Longtime Dakkanaut





I actually only have the boxed set mini rulebook, for some reason it doesn't include the words "to or"

interesting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 16:11:52


 
   
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blaktoof wrote:I actually only have the boxed set mini rulebook, for some reason it doesn't include the words "to or"

interesting.
I have the AoBR rulebook too. In fact, the AoBR Rulebook is word for word, page for page identical to the large rulebook (up to the summary pages anyway).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 16:43:44


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Longtime Dakkanaut





im not lieing. my rulebook honestly does not say "to or" in that spot.


anyways there are other "attack" effects that are not shooting attacks or psychic powers that can target any model within 6" no LoS restrictions (nightmare shroud, technically nightbringers knocback ability if hes in range, Daemons I turn you into chaos spawn power). Considering they have not been allowed to affect models in vehicles it is unlikely this does. Also generally models in vehicles cannot be targetted by things and as the special rule for doom of malan'tai is not permissive towards stating "Even embarked models" or "even models in vehicles" or anything to that effect it is unlikely RAI that it may target models in the vehicles.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/29 16:41:40


 
   
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GW have been known to publish a new edition of a book without announcing it, so it is possible that there are two AoBR rulebooks with slight differences.

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We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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Palm Beach, FL

Kilkrazy wrote:GW have been known to publish a new edition of a book without announcing it, so it is possible that there are two AoBR rulebooks with slight differences.


That's extremely unlikely this late in the game.
   
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blaktoof wrote:Also generally models in vehicles cannot be targetted by things and as the special rule for doom of malan'tai is not permissive towards stating "Even embarked models" or "even models in vehicles" or anything to that effect it is unlikely RAI that it may target models in the vehicles.
It doesn't have to, because the main rules allow it to.

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MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:GW have been known to publish a new edition of a book without announcing it, so it is possible that there are two AoBR rulebooks with slight differences.


That's extremely unlikely this late in the game.


It's not impossible though. The DE codex has at least three editions and the third rules edition Chaos Marines codex had several editions too.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
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At least for the DE codex they were honest about it (sometimes).

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Allowing it to effect them opens up way too many different crazy not covered by the rules and so breaks the game possibilities ...

much better to just insist on a 4+ and if you lose just shoot it with a couple krak missiles ... lol
   
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yakface wrote:Please read page 66 of the rulebook (under 'Embarking'). Measurements involving the embarked unit are measured TO or from the vehicle's hull.


The ability in question is a special rule. It is not a psychic attack which requires line of sight.

Therefore, by the rules embarked units *are* affected by this ability. This is not twisting the rules, this is what the rules say.

Claiming that the ability wouldn't affect embarked units would be twisting the rules in this particular case (IMHO).



I realize your ruling follows the Psychic Scream ruling in the INAT you wrote however...
Would you say that this "Spirit Leech" Doom ability is considered to be "directly attacking" the embarked unit?

I think it's clear that it's "attacking" the units, but like I said I don't feel that the ability is "directly involving" the embarked unit, however, if you do feel that is directly involving the embarked unit, ie you are measuring a range to the embarked unit, do you feel that you are "attacking the unit directly"? Seems like you are.

Someone quoted this to me in support of the Doom ability effecting embarked units, but I felt it stated the contrary:
BRB p.79 wrote:This aside, moving into or out of a building works the same as embarking or disembarking from a vehicle (including emergency disembarkations). All of the normal rules apply <snip> Models entering a building a removed from the table

So you get the idea that buildings, not ruins but buildings with an Armor value, and transports are treated the same.
BRB p.79 wrote:The best way to kill enemy troops in a fortified position is usually just to destroy the fortified position. Units may shoot at or assault an occupied building just as if it was a vehicle. Units inside a building may not be attacked directly, but will be affected in the same manner as units inside a transport vehicle should the building be damaged and so may suffer damage and/or be forced to 'disembark'.

This ultimately answers the logic... can a unit inside a transport be shot. No, because this logic for a building also applies to a transport because they are treated the same. I think it also sets the precedence the embarked unit cannot be attacked... I think that clearly if you are killing enemy models you are attacking them. Hence why I feel that RAW and RAI, No, Spirit Leech does not effect embarked units.

Also note your ruling in the INAT
+RB.66E.02 –
Q: Can an embarked unit ever be forced to fall back or become pinned while in/on a vehicle (or building)?
A: Unless explicitly specified otherwise, no [clarification].
Allowing the Spirit Leech ability to work would force a morale check that is not explicitly stated.
I realize the INAT is not official but considering you have written most of it, I would concluding "Yes it effects embarked units" seems also contradictory

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 18:06:51


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paidinfull wrote:Also note your ruling in the INAT
+RB.66E.02 –
Q: Can an embarked unit ever be forced to fall back or become pinned while in/on a vehicle (or building)?
A: Unless explicitly specified otherwise, no [clarification].
Allowing the Spirit Leech ability to work would force a morale check that is not explicitly stated.
I realize the INAT is not official but considering you have written most of it, I would concluding "Yes it effects embarked units" seems also contradictory
Here is a free nugget of wisdom:
What the Rules say and what the INAT says are two VERY different things. The INAT by definition must bend the rules (or outright change them) to allow a smooth tournament setting game, which is generally time limited.

Notice how the above question is not labelled RaW? That's because it isn't, it's changing the way the rules works.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/01/29 18:11:19


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Gwar! wrote:Here is a free nugget of wisdom:
What the Rules say and what the INAT says are two VERY different things.

Notice how the above question is not labelled RaW? That's because it isn't, it's changing the way the rules works.


Pro Tip #1 my comments were directed at the author of the FAQ, regarding his rulings on similar situations and contradictions. Simply referencing his previous written statements.
edit: this would be no different than pointing out you had no idea what you were talking about in your SW FAQ.


Pro Tip #2 Read the whole post.
You will also note that the RAW in the BRB is that embarked units may not be attacked, per p.79

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/01/29 18:15:44


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South Africa

wow...

doom is not attacking the unit. If this help the way you think of the situation, imagine the enemy is attacking the doom by being within 6" and as a reaction it drains their life.

to summarize: doom not attacking, units in 6" bubble get life drained. simple.


If you read this i own your soul.

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