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Bit of a specific question here...

I am going to make a few assumptions based off my (limited) knowledge of the rules. Please correct me where I am wrong

I fire a bolt thrower at a Lance formation 3 wide, 3 deep.

The Player has placed both a Paladin and a Damsel in the unit (just bear with the poor example if it is) in direct line.

XXX
XDX
XPX

Normally a bolt thrower fired at a unit will not hit a character if the rank and file troops exceed 5 (first assumption).

However in this case I randomize the hit between the first rank (second assumption).

It happens to randomly hit the Paladin. It kills him and penetrates through hitting the damsel, and I do not need to randomize
for the 2nd rank (third assumption).

Again, I expect to be wrong a bit here. If you can clarify please do.

Thanks

1) your second assumption is incorrect, based on assumption 1 wqhich is correct

There are more than 5 RnF *in the unit* and therefore you cannot hit ANY characters. There is no requirement for there to be 5 RnF in the front rank.

Please note: My response comes without my BRB handy.

Using your example:

XXX
XDX
XPX

So the unit count is:
7 Knights, 1 Paladin, and the Damsel. (I am assuming no Champion, who is not a rank and file model)

Assuming you are firing from the front arc, you may still nominate to shoot the Paladin/Damsel/Knight center line. Or from the flank, you may target either rank with the Paladin or Damsel or the back rank with the 3 knights.

Because this unit has 5 Rank and File models, the characters are able to make "Look Out, Sir" rolls. On anything but a 1, another rank and file takes the hit instead of them. Remember, Bannermen and Musicians count as rank and file, Champions do not. So if this unit had a champion, and took 2 Knight casualties and became (where C equals the champ):

X
XDX
XPC

The characters would no longer be eligible for "Look Out, Sir" rolls and you may kabob the Paladin and Damsel at will.

Edited twice for grammar and typos because my typing skills match my Jezzails hunting skills. Basically nil.

you don't get a 'Look out sir' roll from a bolt thrower as it uses BS unlike a Cannon and Stone Thrower. But you are right saying you Can't target the paladin or damsel because there are 5 knights (Rank and File models) and a Unit Champion (a free upgrade for units of Knights which they must take if I remember) but as soon as two of those knights die you can randomise the hits

x
xDx
CPx

if this is the case and you hit the paladin and if you kill him I think you would go for the damsel right behind him as she is in the next model along

JJBcollect2, all bretonnian knight units have a champion as both a mandatory and free choice.

I realized after posting that I had included more than 5 RNF troopers, but wasn't sure on the ruling of whether they had
to be in the front rank so I left it be.

Assuming the first bolt kills 2 troopers, the 2nd bolt could potentially hit and kill both the Paladin and Damsel provided it was
randomized to hit the paladin, kills the paladin, and then auto hits the rank behind regardless of who / what it is.

Thanks for claryfing everyone.

**edited for grammar mistakes**

You cannot randomise to hit, it has already hit the unit....bolt throwers only roll to hit once on the big bolt, you then roll to wound.

but as there is less then 5 rank and file models after the first bolt (assuming it did the damage) you randomise who got hit by the bolt this way

1-4 rnf model
5 Champ
6 Paladin

I still don't know about the damsel though

this is from the store manager at my local GW

Unless the bolt-thrower has clear LOS to the Damsel (unlikely from the front), she can't be the first one hit. However, if the Paladin gets hit and the Damsel is the next in line, then she can be hit.

Nosferatu gave me a good idea... I checked the Lizardman FAQ in relation to different models being in the same unit.

Once the RNF models have been reduced below 5 you may then hit the characters. Once the bolt has been randomized between the front 3 models in the unit, if it kills that model, it will then hit the model directly behind that first model.

So

x
xDx
CPx

If it were to hit this unit, you would randomize between the RNF, the Champion and the Paladin. If it hit the paladin, and killed the paladin, it would then hit the Damsel.

So make sure you aren't lining up your Paladin in front of your damsel I guess.

You'd have to randomize for the damsel too as the bolt thrower hits the 'rank' behind, not the 'model' behind.

Deminyn wrote:You'd have to randomize for the damsel too as the bolt thrower hits the 'rank' behind, not the 'model' behind.

this is the correct way, just check with GW

I disagree. According to the lizardman FAQ when you fire at a mixed unit of Krox and Skinks you must randomize the initial hit much like you would randomize the initial hit between RNF and Characters.

However, after the initial hit has been determined the bolt will react a certain way. Here is the rule for the FAQ

Q. How do you resolve a bolt thrower shooting against a unit of Skinks that includes Kroxigors? Do you randomise the hits for the first rank, or do you wait for the bolt to hit the second rank?

A. OK, this is how we do it. The first thing to do is determine whether the initial model hit is a Skink or a Kroxigor, as explained in the Kroxigor bestiary entry. Once you’ve done that you’ll need to randomise which of that type of model is hit if there is more than one in the rank, and then you can work your way through, hitting the model directly behind if a model is killed.

For example, take a look at the mixed unit of Skinks and Kroxigors shown on page 41 of the Lizardmen army book. If the first model hit was a Skink, then randomise which of the first rank was hit. If it was the one on the extreme left and he was killed, the bolt would pass through to hit the Skink behind him. If you randomised the second Skink from the left, and he was killed, then the bolt would strike the Kroxigor behind him. If the roll to determine which type of model is hit first results in a Kroxigor being hit, then work your way back from the first Kroxigor in the bolt’s path. In the example in the army book, this means a Skink in the first rank was fortunate enough not to be hit, and the bolt will hit a randomly determined Kroxigor and potentially carry on through the unit.

I realize that Characters in units are not exactly the same as mixed units like Krox and Skinks, however the rule itself is very clear on how the bolt reacts once the initial hit has been determined. The bolt penetrates directly behind to the next model behind the one hit.

If you have some form of FAQ to suggest otherwise I would really like to see it. I am not saying that to be a jerk, so please do not take it that way. I really do want clarification on this so if you can show me something to counter this I would gladly accept it.

In the spirit of rules lawyering and YMDC, I'll be playing devil's advocate

1. GW FAQs aren't official (even from themselves) but are 'more official' house rules. (They even say "This is how we do it")

2. This does set a precedent for other mixed units but characters are quite different. Does a kroxigor in a skink unit get a "Look out sir!" roll? no. Therefore the BRB is still the best. (GW rules exist in a vacuum from each other and can't be used to compare unless it is a universal rule is the less nice explaation)

where the lance is hit and you randomize to see who is hit in the first rank, then if it kills, it hits the second rank. no problem so far

now resolve a hit on the 2nd rank at S-1. since there aren't 5 rank & file to hide in, the hit is randomized amongst all legal possible targets as per the character rule.

If the paladin failed his look out sir roll, the damsel would still get one even though she's right behind him. (unrelated, but then, so is the skink/kroxigor rule)

But you do not get a look out sir roll against a Bolt thrower.

So once the randomization has taken place among the front rank, the key line would be how a bolt reacts afterwards. In this case it explicitly hits the model behind the one that was killed. It does not hit the next rank (well it does, but not worded as such) but rather it hits the next model behind.

The ruling in the BRB says (pg. 90) "If the first model hit is slain, the model directly behind in the next rank is hit"

Obviously this doesn't take into account characters, but the initial randomization does, and the rule is then very clear on how the bolt will react. It does not hit the next rank, it hits the model directly behind (which happens to be in the rank behind). So it looks as if the BRB is also following how the Lizardman FAQ treats a bolt thrower.

I understand you are playing devils advocate and I actually appreciate that, but I do not see how the bolt would be randomly hitting each rank after it hits the first.

The look out sir would certainly apply to the 2nd rank with the Damsel. In this case however you aim the cannon to hit the paladin, who then gets a chance to avoid it with look out sir. The damsel is then automatically hit with the cannon (assuming it went through) who can then also make a look out sir roll. This is all assuming there is more than 5 RNF of course.

With the bolt thrower, the characters cannot be hit with the bolt if it is above 5 RNF. If below 5 RNF they can still potentially avoid the bolt with the randomization on the first rank.

As above

Assuming less than 5 RnF you randomise the initial hit. Assuming you wound the model behind is then hit -NOT the rank but the EXACT model directly behind the model who was hit on the front rank.

So yes, the lizard faq was simply following the Rulebook rules on how Bolt throwers work. Therefore whether or not you agree with them as "official" it is irrelevant - the BRB already tells you who is hit.

So, ify ou hit the paladin, you then hit the Damsel behind. No randomisation, as you only randomise when you rollt o hit - there is NO roll to hit on the second rank onwards.

In keeping with this I would assume a slann gets hit if the bolt hits either of the 2 temple guard in front of it.

Makes sense to me.

Yep. It states "the model behind is hit" - so you need to work out which model is hit.

However if there is >4 RNF the Slann *cannot* get hit (BRB Shooting at characters in units) which would override the Bolt thrower rules - as the bolt thrower rules affect the second rank in general, this is giving a specific statement that the Slann CANNOT get hit.

k, mis remembered the model vs rank thing

now what if
XXX
XDX
PXP

if it hits the first rank, it auto hits the X as there are 5 rank n file, would it than hit the D as its the model right behind?

Thats where it gets tricky. With 5 RNF a character cannot be hit, so the bolt would somehow not hit the damsel. I understand exactly what you are getting at, and I have no explanation for the logic behind it.

I would say in this case, if X was killed then there would no longer be 5 RNFs to make the no character rule still apply, at the same time you could say that the rule applies at the time of the shot and not on a wound by wound basis.

If it doesn't kill X then who cares.

You determine what can be hit by the Bolt thrower once - when you roll to hit. You cannot hit the damsel as there is no longer a roll to hit for the second row.

As long as there is 5 RnF when you start the shooting attack you CANNOT hit a character, regardless.

aerethan wrote:I would say in this case, if X was killed then there would no longer be 5 RNFs to make the no character rule still apply, at the same time you could say that the rule applies at the time of the shot and not on a wound by wound basis.

If it doesn't kill X then who cares.

I made that example so that there were 6 X's and that even when the first X died, there are 5 RnFs left.