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So I played for Skaven for the first time today and we had a couple of questions come up. I'm hoping the dakka community can help me figure some of this out. So, please and thank you in advance.

Question #1:

After a long drawn out CC, my unit of Stormvermin and Grey Seer were finally killed off, leaving only the Screaming Bell alive. (At full wounds). I can't find any rules about what to do with the bell. It's a mount, does it die if the Grey Seer dies? It has a separate profile but is missing the most important stat---Leadership. I originally thought that it would stay there and the opponent would have to kill it (thus, counting as still being in CC) but after I lost that CC phase, I didn't know what kind of test to take with the bell....The rule gives the Grey Seer and the unit pushing it Unbreakable, not the bell itself. Alas, we didnt know what to do so I just took the whole model away. Any thoughts??

Questions #2:

Can a Grey Seer cast magic missile out of CC? He has the Above the Masses rule and CAN draw line of sight over his own unit. I'm sure there's an obvious answer for this but I may be just overlooking something.

Question #3:

Magic Banner: Banner of the Under Empire. This banner says that it inflicts 2D6 S2 hits to any unit in BtB with the unit bearing it at the start of each and every close combat. Does this mean before attacks are made on both sides? Simultaneous? Before charging units?? Thoughts?

Thanks alot Dakkites.

#1 I cannot say as I have little experience with skaven.

#2 No. Spells cannot be cast while the wizard is in close combat unless the spell specifies otherwise, and magic missiles never do. It is not a matter of line of sight so much as the wizard is preoccupied with the combat.

#3 If the banner specifies "at the start of every combat" then yes, I would judge that it hits before chargers or ASF.

1: If I remember correctly, the previous Skaven FAQ from GW said that the Bell remained in play if the seer died. Obviously we can't directly apply it, but it does set precedent. I play that the bell remains; I don't see why a giant 6 wound model would go away because the character died.

aerethan wrote:
#2 No. Spells cannot be cast while the wizard is in close combat unless the spell specifies otherwise, and magic missiles never do. It is not a matter of line of sight so much as the wizard is preoccupied with the combat.

Not quite. Magic Missiles cannot be cast while the caster is in combat, and "wizards cannot cast spells at a units engaged in close combat, unless the spell only affects the caster himself or the spell's description says otherwise."

So yes, no Warp Lightning from the Seer while in combat. A few of the other spells in the Skaven book, however, are not magic missiles, and don't target any enemy units; Howling Warpgale, Scorch, Cracks Call.

3: The Banner actually says the start of every close combat phase, , not just close combat. So yes, before you even decide which combat to resolve first, the banner goes off.

As far as the unattended Screaming Bell goes...

I would probably say that no, the bell is not destroyed when the unit and crew are wiped out. However... I would question the point of leaving the bell on the table at that point. A new unit cannot reform around it; another Grey Seer cannot 'man' it. So it just becomes an obstacle.

Besides, the bell is not taken by itself. It is an add-on to the Grey Seer, with effects that boost the accompanying unit. So long as one exists, there is a reason for the bell to stay. Once they are gone...

I think the OP did the right thing in removing it. Otherwise it a) is cheesy for denying the VP, and b) clutters up the table. And there is some precident in that unattended war machines in CC are destroyed as well...

Well ... the rat ogre crewing it remains, and may very well still be able to keep on ringing it. I think the last book specified that the ringing is independent of the seer actually being there, not sure if the new book says something to that effect or the other side. I'm of the opinion that it would remain and have to be destroyed, and the lack of leadership is more sloppy writing but somewhat of a moot point on an unbreakable thing.

You might have something with the bit about unattended war machines, but I think the integration of the rat ogre crew into the statline - ala the WLC and PCC - might mess with that analogy.

- Salvage

Thanks for the responses. The Ld is the most important factor here since the bell itself is not unbreakable. It just makes the Grey Seer and unit pushing it unbreakable. They were both gone so....
I don't know. Hopefully an errata/faq will be out soon. Thanks again.

1) the bell is not unbreakable, therefore it will have to take a break test. Ld "-" == Ld 0 (BRB) therefore unless it rolls a double 1 it will flee 2D6, as it is M6 or less.

Once fleeing it cannot rally, as it can never roll 0

2) as above - magic missiles may NEVER be cast whiel you are in Close Combat, regardless of anything like LOS.

3) as above - it happens before anything in the phase.

Ahhhhhhh yes. How awkward. Nice one, GeeDub

- Salvage

If there's not unit, it can't even move, so it would be caught right away.

I don't think there's anything to equate it to a war machine though; it follows none of the rules in that section. There's no crew to leave it.

I also don't think that because the surrounding crew and the seer is gone, that it should be removed. It can still ring, and it can still fight in combat. I agree though that Ld 0 means that any Ld test that's not double 1s would be failed, and then if it runs, remove it

No, it flees 2D6 - fleeing is not normal movement, and thereore it would use the "infantry" flee movement of 2D6.

You also only get "insane courage" on break tests, therefore it will flee and never rally.

Boss_Salvage wrote:Well ... the rat ogre crewing it remains, and may very well still be able to keep on ringing it. I think the last book specified that the ringing is independent of the seer actually being there, not sure if the new book says something to that effect or the other side. I'm of the opinion that it would remain and have to be destroyed, and the lack of leadership is more sloppy writing but somewhat of a moot point on an unbreakable thing.

You might have something with the bit about unattended war machines, but I think the integration of the rat ogre crew into the statline - ala the WLC and PCC - might mess with that analogy.

- Salvage

Oh. My bad. I forgot about the Rat Ogre being part of the statline.

So... given that the Rat Ogre can still fight... combat continues, doesn't it? Roll break test, if it comes up 'insane courage' it holds and fights, otherwise it breaks (in more ways than one! )

Nosferatu, I refer you to page 43 of the latest Skaven codex, under the heading 'Pushed into Battle,' the last sentence of the second paragraph ('Moving the Screaming Bell'). Quote: "If the unit is reduced to five or less models, it cannot move." So, if the unit is wiped out, it is by definition reduced to five models or less, and so cannot move.

I suspect that functionally, once the unit and the grey seer are gone, the bell is a goner as well. One time in 36 it will hold on for another round of combat, and then will almost certainly get creamed. If not, it would take a miracle (or the general still being alive) for the bell to make a second break test. Sooo, the OP didn't loose that much by removing the bell anyway.

1. Your right - the bell and rat ogre don't have a specified LD, and it is a mount (not a warmachine), so if everyone in the unit was dead and the grey seer, you'd be need an insane LD check to not break.

2. Magic missiles - it's a large target with a 360 LOS, but nothing allows it to cast magic missiles in combat (unlike Slann which have a special rule).

3. The banner rule states "at the start of each and every close combat phase", so I would say it works like Plague Censers and goes before charges, impact hits, etc. etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's another Skaven question in regards to the Warp Lightning Cannon.

1. Shoots like a cannon - straight line with bounce.
2. End of bounce distance, small template - no problem.

How does it work with the small template hitting a multi-part model, i.e. a stegadon or a character on mount? The wording says "all models touched are hit", which I would think mean all parts of a multi-part model. But - since the rules for those guys is a little vague, curious what you'all think.

Every part of the model is hit, as there are no partial hits with Skaven weapons...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Every part of the model is hit, as there are no partial hits with Skaven weapons...

hopefully a sign of things to come in 8th edition, at which point I may ramp up my 2 salamanders to 4.

Not to get this directed towards an 8th edition thread, but if partials are gone in 8th edition, it will be templates and stone throwers making a come back!

For the dreaded 13th spell, are characters considered infantry? I was playing a beastmen player and he miscast last turn, letting my grey seer get the free spell. Had a choice of a tooled up Beastmen Sorcerer Lord or a unit of Tzeentch minotaurs - chose the minotaurs to go bye bye as we weren't clear if characters counted as infantry models (still US1).

Are minotaurs US1? shouldn't they be US3 like Ogres/Trolls/Rat Ogres?

characters are US1 if they are on foot and mounted on 20 or 25mm bases. Anything on a 40mm base is US3 and a 50mm base is USxW( number of starting wounds determines US).

This of course is a guideline, and if the Mintotaurs unit entry says a US otherwise then it takes priority.

I don't believe that the 13th spell has a US requirement, but rather a requirement to be 'infantry'.

13th requires you to be "Infantry", and 20,25 and 40mm bases all start out as Infantry unless otherwise specified.

So yes, targeting Minotaurs is an *excellent* idea.