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I have a friend who is just starting the game and was trying to get me interested. It seems interesting, but I had a question about it. 40k seemed to be very heavily dependent on how you tweak individual units and groups. The special rules were obscene and overly numerous to me. WM seems to be less about how you tweak your units and more on how you work the base units together to make synergy and do work. More strategy almost?

I don't know - I guess I'm just trying to determine how much meta-game customization you have to do to make your army work and be playable versus how much you can play with the basic units? Is there a lot of upgrades to consider, etc etc? I appreciate it - also, do the games play quick? I've never seen a WM game played, only read about the rules a bit and browsed the new rule book to look at the pretty pictures.

Why not download the quickstart rules (attached below) and proxy a small game or two with your 40k models.

Dreadnoughts or Sentinels will do for heavy warjacks, Terminators or other 40mm based models for light warjacks and infantry models for Warcasters. Your bases will be slightly wrong but you'll get a basic feel for the game.

stinlin wrote:WM seems to be less about how you tweak your units and more on how you work the base units together to make synergy and do work.

This is a pretty apt summary of how Warmachine army building differs from 40k.

stinlin wrote:I guess I'm just trying to determine how much meta-game customization you have to do to make your army work and be playable versus how much you can play with the basic units? Is there a lot of upgrades to consider, etc etc? I appreciate it - also, do the games play quick? I've never seen a WM game played, only read about the rules a bit and browsed the new rule book to look at the pretty pictures.

In general upgrades to models and units do not exist. There is no wargear to consider for your characters. The only upgrades lie in the form of Unit Attachments for units or Solos (independent characters) which lend bonuses to your units or cripple the enemy's models. Unit Attachments are typically two additional troopers for a unit that provide one or more special rules. In most cases the models themselves are a unit standard and an officer. They are optional, but often are worth the army building points if you want to use the parent unit to its full advantage. Solos are almost as varied as Warcasters in that some are very general and provide general support for your army, while others are specialized and provide bonuses for specific units.

On Warcasters:

Typically how people go about creating an army is by picking a Warcaster and building an army around that Warcaster's strengths. A Warcaster's spell lists is designed to help your army in specific ways and hurt the enemy's army in specific ways. Likewise a Warcaster's feat (a once per game special ability) needs to be considered when building an army. Some feats really give your army an offensive punch (extra attacks, bonuses to hit, ect) or they can cripple the enemy army (reducing their armor value, making them frozen in place, ect). Finally the Warcaster's role on the battlefield also differs from Warcaster to Warcaster. Some like to stay back and direct things via spells while others are more front line fighters that rely little on their army except as a vehicle to deliver the Warcaster into combat.

Understanding what role the Warcaster you want to use plays in the game makes list building much easier. You can add in troops and Warjacks that will benefit from your Warcaster's abilities or exploit the perks that your Warcaster brings to the table.

The games are fairly quick as things die rather easily (no armor saves!) and if you and your opponent have a solid grasp of the rules a typical game (35 points) should take about 45-60 minutes. More if you like to BS and joke around.

In general the game is a lot of fun and right now is the perfect time to jump in since they released the new rule set. If you have any faction specific army building questions please post them since it will be easier to give specific answers for a particular army than in speaking in broad generalized terms.

Alright, that's what I really wanted to know. Not having to worry about add-ons is a big bonus to me. I like the strategy aspect quite a bit, and 40k lacked that to me. And it seems relatively inexpensive in comparison to 40k, ha. Thanks for the help.

stinlin wrote:Alright, that's what I really wanted to know. Not having to worry about add-ons is a big bonus to me. I like the strategy aspect quite a bit, and 40k lacked that to me. And it seems relatively inexpensive in comparison to 40k, ha. Thanks for the help.

You guys crack me up when you say it seems inexpensive. I know I could have bought a nice used car for what I have spent on warmachine.

whitekong wrote:

stinlin wrote:Alright, that's what I really wanted to know. Not having to worry about add-ons is a big bonus to me. I like the strategy aspect quite a bit, and 40k lacked that to me. And it seems relatively inexpensive in comparison to 40k, ha. Thanks for the help.

You guys crack me up when you say it seems inexpensive. I know I could have bought a nice used car for what I have spent on warmachine.

I'd still buy the army in that case

Like all things, it adds up.

If you want inexpensive, you probably want a historicals game (little army expansion in
the product line and cheaper minis) or a true skirmish game (Warlord or Song of Blade and Heroes)

By inexpensive, I mean you can play a game with what appears to be around $150 worth of models. My nids for 40k have close to $300 into them, and they're only about a 1k point army. To get up to the 1500 point games that are so common around my local shop would cost me a nice chunk more, especially with the new codex and all.

And on top of that, again, WM seems like a more strategic game. I'm going to run some solo proxy games tonight to see if I like the way the game plays and how the quickstart rules go.

Whether it's expensive or cheap really depends on your frame of reference.

For example, if you are only planning to buy one 35 pt army and stick with that until the end of time (or at least through this next version of the rules, so about 3-5 years-ish) then it is not that expensive. However, if you plan on buying every model released for a faction and/or all the new releases with each book and multiple casters, etc. then you would probably think that it is very expensive. It really depends on your local meta, how you choose to play, and what you decide to buy.

In my experience, getting into WM/H was a lot cheaper than getting a starting army for 40k (I didn't want to play SM/Orks at the time, I wanted Tau). No one ever really played low point games for 40k where I was, people played 1500pt games. Fantasy was even more expensive since I played Orcs&Gobbos, and 2000pts was standard at the time. Even a low model count army that I picked up later (brettonians) ran me well over $350, and that was nine (?) ago...I have no idea how much it would be now.

Whereas when I started playing Hordes, I had a 500pt. troll list for about $150 a couple years back. But my regular gaming buddy bought just about every Menoth thing ever released and so has spent who knows how much money on it.

So, my post pretty much boils down to, it depends.

Also, I've found WM/H system to require a lot more brainpower to play, which I like. In a lot of ways, it feels much closer to fantasy 6th ed. than it does to 40k. In 40k I mostly feel like games are just rolling bucket loads of dice...and movement is de-emphasized as directions of facing/charging don't really matter. That's just my personal opinion though, and it's true I have not played GW games in many years now, so I could be completely wrong.

Acheron wrote:...Also, I've found WM/H system to require a lot more brainpower to play, which I like. In a lot of ways, it feels much closer to fantasy 6th ed. than it does to 40k. In 40k I mostly feel like games are just rolling bucket loads of dice...and movement is de-emphasized as directions of facing/charging don't really matter. That's just my personal opinion though, and it's true I have not played GW games in many years now, so I could be completely wrong.

This is what has me interested in WM more than anything.

WM is also a lot more about sneaky tricks and gambles. The phrase "Play like you've got a pair" means a lot to the game.

Say poor epic Feora gets slammed back and knocked down to where the Crusader that was about to obliterate his warcaster is now out of her control area. What do you do?! You planned to give it 3 focus on your turn and kick his butt, but now you can't allocate any because it's just out of your area. She's in melee with an enemy and has few hit boxes left. She has to forfeit movement or action since she's been knocked down, but if she walks away she takes a free strike. What to do?!

Hierophant uses harmonious Exaltation on Feora. She stands up, pulls a focus from a wrack, casts Fire Step for 1 to get out of melee, walks to where the Crusader's in her control area, casts convection 3 times on the models in the unit she escaped from, hitting back arcs. The deaths from the spell allow her to allocate 3 focus to the crusader, who continues his bloody stomping rampage through their caster. Woohoo!

Or you can be even more risky. "Oh no, my reclaimer is surrounded and can't get close enough to my jack to use his ability to give focus without taking a free strike! What do I do?!"

Take a risky chance, march your open-fist jack up to him and throw him next to the jack! Now he's in range, after soaring over the heads of his assailants!

....just hope he survives the throw.

You can't stand up in a turn you were knocked down. So you might as well go for the free strike.

I'm just saying

Ok, so the Covenant activates first and makes it so you can't be knocked down. Thppbbbttt

Wheeee!

stinlin wrote:By inexpensive, I mean you can play a game with what appears to be around $150 worth of models. My nids for 40k have close to $300 into them, and they're only about a 1k point army. To get up to the 1500 point games that are so common around my local shop would cost me a nice chunk more, especially with the new codex and all.

And on top of that, again, WM seems like a more strategic game. I'm going to run some solo proxy games tonight to see if I like the way the game plays and how the quickstart rules go.

I just started nids in january, and they are my second army.

*begins the count of how much has been spent*

2 Trygons
3 Zons
3 Hive
24 Horms
12 Warriors
3 ravs
10 gargs
1 Carni
2 Tyrants
1 Bio
16 Genestealer
22 terma
ummmmm thinks that is it!

Warmachine looks extremly interesting!!! I am thinking of geting a few things just to see how I like them . . .

There's no reason not to get the quick start rules off of PP's website and run a test battle using some of your 40k models as proxies.