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The title pretty much says it all. I'm trying to garner some sort of consensus on the use of the various razorback types, their roles, their strengths, weaknesses, etc for a mech army that i'm tryin to get together


My comments/ideas in regards to Razorbacks....

(I've decided to give them special names so that they sound cooler and so that i have something to occupy my amazing and omniscient intellect )

Rain of Steel Razor back- The twin linked assault cannons obviously makes this a very killy (many say the most killy) RB in the book. It has tremendous anti-horde fire power, decent anti MC potential, and again decent anti light to medium tank potential. Against anything with a save of 4 or less it's pretty much an instant death, with a to wound rate of 10/13 against such targets provided they have toughness 4 or less (this isn't counting rending). Sure if a target is in cover then they have a higher survival rate, but then they're in cover, and not assaulting your TAC squads.

The downside of course is that it is super expensive, it's a high profile target, and it isn't any more survivable than a regular razorback. Also, it has a pretty poor range as far as tanks are concerned.

My thoughts: Take for TAC squads that will be on the front lines, or for sternguard.

Wyvern Razor back- Heavy flamers are nasty, twinlinked even more so. If combined with an assault squad or vanguard veterans they could be a nasty combo.

The problem is they suck. Their range is even more limited by the placement of the weapon on the tank, the tank, some argue, is forced to roll for penetration against itself every time it shoots because of this, and it's nearly as expensive as other better variants. If this had a special S5 flamer and was ten points cheaper I'd consider it, but they suck as is.

My thoughts: Are you fething stupid?!

Meteor Pattern Razor Back- Twin linked las for all of your light-medium tank needs, also great at making those darned MCs run for cover. The problem with a Las lack of volume of fire is mostly mitigated by the twin linkedness of this armament making this a better option than your standard Ezekiel with a Las cannon. It has pretty incredible range too, making it a decent firing platform in it's own right.

The Meteor has mostly the same problems as the Rain of Steel. Namely, expense, target priority. Also, its weapon is meant for long range attacks, which benefits its low AV but means that it gets really confused when it is supposed to both fire from a distance and transport troops to the front lines at full speed. Everyone knows by now the weaknesses of Las with the dawn of 5th ed. so i won't broach that here.

My thoughts, for small squads of devastators this might be a useful transport/ assisting weapons platform but a huge points sink for what you're getting. It might be useful in some armies but not as many as people apparently seem to think.


Nova Pattern Razor Back- (this refers to the Las cannon and plasma cannon Razor back, and i have no idea how i would use it so imma just not even try to talk about it + + + = me in regards to how the feth to use this guy)



Joe pattern Razor back- Ah the Joe pattern razor back. It comes in a delightful package of mobile firepower that fires off a pretty decent amount of anti infantry rounds. it's cheap as well.

It has no specialties, and it isn't as killy as the Rain of Steel back either, and it's ideal targets are more limited.

My thoughts: A staple in Mech forces, the joe can be great especially for dropping TACs on medium ranged targets. It's disadvantages are mitigated to a large extent by its mobility and cheapness





Well, please comment, critique, and insult my logic at your leisure. I have left things out (either because i am stupid or lazy) so please fill in the gaps.

The "Nova pattern" is actually called the "Stronos pattern" and has a lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun, not a lascannon and plasma cannon.

Are the names you gave them by any chance from UNA Fire Toad variants lol

Fetterkey wrote:The "Nova pattern" is actually called the "Stronos pattern" and has a lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun, not a lascannon and plasma cannon.

My mistake. So i guess that the Stronos pattern is supposed to be some sort of heavy infantry/light-med tank killer..?


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LunaHound wrote:Are the names you gave them by any chance from UNA Fire Toad variants lol

Oh most definitely... wait wha..?

If you think that a mech army spamming twin-linked flamers on an AR11 chassis is weak, let me introduce you to St. John's immolator spam list. A razor with a heavy flamer costs the same as an immolator. It can't move 12" and still shoot like the immo, but it comes with T4/WS4 models inside and can be a scoring unit, so it's a near trade. Model it by cutting only the muzzles off your lascannons and replacing them with flamer muzzles to give the flamers enough reach to clear the sides of your model.

And I'm not sure what you mean by saying all these razors can't move & shoot. Of course they can move (6") and shoot. That's a major advantage they have over rhinos with guys shooting heavy weapons out the hatches.

And as for the expense, they can only be bought as part of a unit, so you gotta take that into account too. Five space marines with a razorback is 130 points compared with 200+ points for ten marines in a rhino. Slap on one of the 35 point upgrade weapons and you're still looking at 165 points for a mechanized, scoring unit with a move & shoot heavy weapon. Armies in the ~1750 range can usually get four razors where they'd only get three rhinos. Space wolves get an even better deal, with the ability to put a flamer in the marine squad.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

And I'm not sure what you mean by saying all these razors can't move & shoot. Of course they can move (6") and shoot. That's a major advantage they have over rhinos with guys shooting heavy weapons out the hatches.

.

Lord almighty I'm dumb . y'see? that's why i come here, so that my stupid little oversights can be rectified by people such as yourself. Thank you sir, thank you


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Flavius Infernus wrote:
And as for the expense, they can only be bought as part of a unit, so you gotta take that into account too. Five space marines with a razorback is 130 points compared with 200+ points for ten marines in a rhino. Slap on one of the 35 point upgrade weapons and you're still looking at 165 points for a mechanized, scoring unit with a move & shoot heavy weapon. Armies in the ~1750 range can usually get four razors where they'd only get three rhinos. Space wolves get an even better deal, with the ability to put a flamer in the marine squad.

These small 5 man squads also can work wonders as speed bump units, use them to indirect incoming hordes of nob bikers and other speedy melta toting weapons and then blast them all to hell on your next turn it works best with the Joe 'back though.

Shrike78 wrote:Rain of Steel Razor back- The twin linked assault cannons obviously makes this a very killy (many say the most killy) RB in the book. It has tremendous anti-horde fire power, decent anti MC potential, and again decent anti light to medium tank potential. Against anything with a save of 4 or less it's pretty much an instant death, with a to wound rate of 10/13 against such targets provided they have toughness 4 or less (this isn't counting rending). Sure if a target is in cover then they have a higher survival rate, but then they're in cover, and not assaulting your TAC squads.

Ironically enough he TL AC has a better chance of having an effect on AV 14 than a lascannon. The drawback of the TL AC razorback is the 24" range, so its not good in a gun line. Its also not as good on AV12 as a LC. In every other aspect it is superior to the LC.

The following chart shows the exact odds.

labmouse42 wrote:Ironically enough he TL AC has a better chance of having an effect on AV 14 than a lascannon. The drawback of the TL AC razorback is the 24" range, so its not good in a gun line. Its also not as good on AV12 as a LC. In every other aspect it is superior to the LC.

I keep seeing this chart and yes the TL Ass Cannon is better than a TL Lascannon shooting at AR 14, but please look to the left and notice at what % they both are at vs. AR14... The only successful way to deal with AR14 at range is Melta. So please stop toting this chart around as an example of what's better against heavy Armour it's misleading.

Actually, the percentage difference between the ACs and LCs is negligible until you hit AV 12 where the LCs are about 10% more likely to give the glance/pen. Add in the range and ability to AP 2, ID T4 models and deny FNP (warriors, oblits, plague marines, etc.) and AP 2 and the LCs seem pretty solid as a vehicle/anti heavy infantry platform. The ACs shorter range with better ROF for dealing with larger numbers while still having a shot at vehicles.

Shrike78 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The "Nova pattern" is actually called the "Stronos pattern" and has a lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun, not a lascannon and plasma cannon.

My mistake. So i guess that the Stronos pattern is supposed to be some sort of heavy infantry/light-med tank killer..?

Yeah. In practice, though, I find that the twin-linked lascannon is usually more effective.

Shrike78 wrote:

These small 5 man squads also can work wonders as speed bump units, use them to indirect incoming hordes of nob bikers and other speedy melta toting weapons and then blast them all to hell on your next turn it works best with the Joe 'back though.

I recently made the transition from 3 tac squads in rhinos to--for the same points--4-5 tac squads in razors (with 35-point upgrades and combi weapons on the sergeants) in my all-mech army, and I'm pretty happy with the results. The infantry inside are more fragile, but they can muster a lot more long-range mobile firepower overall.

I think it has to be an all-or-nothing kind of thing, though. You really need 4+ razorbacks to get the economy of scale that makes up for having fewer marine infantry models.

General_Chaos wrote:I keep seeing this chart and yes the TL Ass Cannon is better than a TL Lascannon shooting at AR 14, but please look to the left and notice at what % they both are at vs. AR14... The only successful way to deal with AR14 at range is Melta. So please stop toting this chart around as an example of what's better against heavy Armour it's misleading.

If by range you mean within 6"-12", then yes melta is better. Once we are talking mid - long range, SM have only Assault cannon and Lascannon to accomplish this. That is why it is being brought up. The assault cannon is better than the lascannon for mid to close range firefights.

This fact in no way marginalizes the role of melta weaponry as best CLOSE range anti-tank. Melta is still king there. As is the lascannon at long range firefights.

my opnion on the razorback variants and what they should be used with

TL-Lascannon, this goes with tank hunting devestators. (4 lascannons) it augments their fire-power and gives them the option to escape if required.

TL-heavy bolter. this also pairs well with dev squads that are anti-horde(2 missile launchers/plasma cannons, 2 Hvy bolters) same reasons as above. or it can transport an assault squad or sit on an objective with a small tac squad

TL-plasma gun and lascannon. Personally: this is an odd combination of armament. it should only be taken against MEQs. any squad except for Devs can go with this variant.

TL-Hvy flamer, this is only practical against hordes and what ever unit is inside better get out before they get swamped by nids and destroyed because the hatches were covered. assault squads if at all

TL-assault cannon. my favorite personally. this works well with assaulty command squads. it can take out most vehicles and any infantry fairly easily. you should always take a storm bolter with this variant to increase the firepower

Its my assumption that the stronos pattern's effectiveness has more to do with your opponent than the other variants. The other variants have pretty specific and easily identifiable roles. This is obvious because they are all twin linked versions of one gun or another. The stronos however is mixing two very different weapons which makes their role less obvious.

I will be testing the stronos pattern against the fast, assault oriented lists like nids. My small dev squad will have their RB nearby when it is time to move locations. The lascannon will do what it can from a distance knowing full well the gap will quickly be closed and those twin linked plasmas will have to carry the bulk of the weight to punish interstellar cockroaches.


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My question is does the effectiveness of the TL AC make it worth the 35 points over the TL HB?

I want to use a high rate of fire weapon to control mid board. I think the long range of the HB is less necessary what you are already 24 inches up. But if I have two of these pups 70 points could go a long way.

I've had surprising success with TL HB Razorbacks upgraded with pintle-mounted storm bolters. They are only 50 points and seem to do quite well against infantry.

The las/plasma is my personal favorite. Either or both of its weapons is effective against the whole list of things I want to keep at a distance: AR11-12 transports, monstrous creatures, bikes, terminators, speeders. It has a shot that can instakill T4 bugs, and the bulk AP2 wound-on-a-2 firepower that's needed against heavy infantry at short range when they deepstrike/pod into your lines. Its threat range goes all the way out to 48" and just gets moreso the closer you get.

The only disadvantage is that you can't move & shoot both weapons, but there are a lot of cases where you don't want to move anyway.

I tend to run three razors - 2 AC, and 1 LC. In almost all my games, they work beautifully. The AC razors run up front with a Crusader, and between the three put out a tremendous amount of shots. 3 Twin linked AC's will put the hurt on anything - including other Land Raiders. While these are upfront dealing damage, the LC is in the back, guarding a home objective, and shooting enemy rhino's in my opponents backfield.

This leads me to believe that the key is synergy, just like any other marine choice. Any one razorback can hurt, but can also be neutralized very easily. How do you deal with three when all of them are dangerous?

another tactic is to have the Rbacks buried in a group of rhinos, say 1 Rback to 2 rhinos.

a marine list could easily have 4 rhinos and 2 Rbacks in a 1500 point game.

units that don't need a transport can still purchase it and have it carry something else.


Say you have some Devestators who will be tank hunters(lascannons, missile launchers...ect) they will be in the back field making the most of their long range and won't "need" a transport, but a combat squaded Tac squad could use it. put your power fist sergeant, flamer and 3 marines in the rhino and have them assault the enemy while the 5 marines with the heavy weapon in the Rback move forward and sit on any objectives or park them in a place with a sweeping view of the battle field for some target practice backed up by the Rbacks heavy weapon.

Thanks to impressive rolls, two Las/Plas Razorbacks put 6 wounds on my buddy's Trygon and dropped him in one round.

I run 1 Las/Plas to 1 Rhino in my current list; 2 of each. I can pile them up for a rolling wall with the RB's in the back, pair them off and send them after objectives, etc.

I've been trying this formation, too: Vindicator - Rhino - Razorback (Las/Plas). I call it "The Pain Train". I'll usually have Tac x 10, PC, PG, PP in the Rhino, and a 5 Man CS with PF, C-M, MG (LC in the backfield) in the Razorback.

Everything rolls forward 6" every turn in a column formation. The Vindicator clears the path and gives AV13 to the front, the Plasma Gun and Plasma Pistol fire at anything within 12" from the Rhino Hatches, and the Razorback brings up the rear either adding TL-PG shots to the Rhino's target, or sending a Lascannon shot downrange.

This is also the reason I think the Vindicator Seige Shield should include a rule that clears a path through rubble, and allows the following transports to move through terrain without the immobilization check as it follows the same path. Oh well, my tactical acumen is simply to much for the game to bear...

(my vote is for the Laz/Plas-erback, or Stronos Pattern. When oh when will they make a pre-fab turret for this. I'm tired of chopping infantry guns...)

GeneralRetreat wrote:

(my vote is for the Laz/Plas-erback, or Stronos Pattern. When oh when will they make a pre-fab turret for this. I'm tired of chopping infantry guns...)

I am 99% sure the OOP 2 ed. RB came with this standard. Maybe you could eBay some. I wish I had mine. It our version of the fathers' baseball card collection story if you know what I mean.

I confess I would use the stronos pattern if I had the bits. As it is, I've had a bunch of spare assault cannons, so that + magnetized turrets = razorbacks.

And they have performed well.

Try this method to convert a las/plasma turret:

1. Cut off the lascannon barrels at the base of the tubular parts, just where it starts to turn into the corrugated "ray gun" part, leaving the forestock parts that go under the barrel in place.

2. Cut the muzzle carefully off one of the lascannon barrels, and attach it to the rear of the other barrel, making a double-length lascannon barrel. Use some care to make sure they are straight so your barrel doesn't appear to have a kink or bend in the middle.

3. cram that new, longer barrel below/between the place where the two lascannons used to be.

4. Cut the stock and power cell off a couple of plasma gun bits and glue them to the forestocks left behind when you cut off the lascannons. (You can get metal plasma bitz from GW if you don't have extra plastic ones lying around.)

You end up with the lascannon below and between the two plasma guns.

Or, an alternative super-easy method is to cut off one of the lascannon barrels and glue two plastic plasma pistol bitz (everybody has tons of these rolling around) where it used to be. Not as pretty, but does the job.

Well to give my opinion as to the question about the Joe backs versus the Rain of steel backs:

The comparison is a bit like comparing tactical squads and sternguard. Sterns are far more versatile and killy, and the tacticals well... aren't.

Generally speaking, I would load up tacticals in my joe backs and put sternguard in my AC backs, as each respectively fill similar roles.

This is usually contingent on whether or not i have kantor in my army however, as i will use my TAC squads in joe backs to take midfield objectives and use sternguard in RoS backs to take objectives that are in hot zones.

If I'm not using Kantor, then Generally I would have heavily kitted out TAC squads with AC backs to capture contested objectives... -shrugs- or maybe even a TAC or two in rhinos