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Subject covers it. As a big fan of the fluff and the angry black marines, I would love to see an update. According to wikipedia, we are only behind WH, DH, Necrons and DE in terms of last updated armies; and we all know (whether we like it or not) that Marines seem to be updated more often than other armies.

I start this thread because a similar thread in June of '09 said that Blood Angels and Black Templars would be the next chapter codices and that they would be released fairly close to one another. The first piece of this rumor is now obviously correct. Is there any validity to the second piece?

The previous, locked BT rumor thread can be found here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/244165.page#1009112

I don't know if it's true but I'd love my BT termies to be able to assault out of their land raider. >.>

I've recently noticed that both WH and DH Codex were no longer showing on the GW website though. If this means anything, perhaps the Inquisition is the next update and I wouldn't be surprised if Black Templars came before Dark Eldar. Nobody seems to play the emo space elves anymore.

InquisitorBob wrote:I don't know if it's true but I'd love my BT termies to be able to assault out of their land raider. >.>

I've recently noticed that both WH and DH Codex were no longer showing on the GW website though. If this means anything, perhaps the Inquisition is the next update and I wouldn't be surprised if Black Templars came before Dark Eldar. Nobody seems to play the emo space elves anymore.

Woops we can't already? I've been playing that one wrong... I'm gonna go check my codex. Even the crusader?

I think that the BT dex could be fixed with a good set of errata. This is coming from a SM player, BT dose not need a new dex yet (the only chapter that really needs it after BA is DA).

There are other armies that need new codices before BT, like DE and Necrons as well as WH/DH.

Kervin wrote:I think that the BT dex could be fixed with a good set of errata. This is coming from a SM player, BT dose not need a new dex yet (the only chapter that really needs it after BA is DA).

There are other armies that need new codices before BT, like DE and Necrons as well as WH/DH.

I disagree. With the new edition and new vanilla SM codex, we have become an extremely bland dex. The ability that really set us apart from regular marines (righteous zeal) has become completely obsolete with the new edition. 1) Because of the huge swing toward mechanization and MSUs, a rule that depends on footslogging is undesirable and 2) Consolidate into combat being removed puts a damper on its effectiveness.

Helbrecht needs to be brought in line with other SM special characters.

Chaplains are an irrelevant codex entry now because of the change to preferred enemy.

Having 2 special characters is out of line with every 5th edition codex, and it would be nice to see more of that.

BT needs the flavor put back in,at least imo. The reason I switched to guard from them in the first place is that I always felt I might as well have been playing C:SM and got tired of being crushed by BA in close combat.

Well Righteous Zeal is one thing but we still have the Champ and his vows to set us apart!

But yeah...

Assaulting out of a transport can't be done if the transport has moved since 5th edition. So even if the BT Land Raider Crusader says it has those freg nades-equivalent, it only works if the tank has not moved in that turn.

5th edition Codex SM made the LR's assault transports or some other name, meaning you can assault out of them just fine.

Most players in friendly games would let you do it with non-5th edition chapters, especially one so clearly assault-oriented as BT... but RAW is that you can't do it anymore.

InquisitorBob wrote:Well Righteous Zeal is one thing but we still have the Champ and his vows to set us apart!

But yeah...

Assaulting out of a transport can't be done if the transport has moved since 5th edition. So even if the BT Land Raider Crusader says it has those freg nades-equivalent, it only works if the tank has not moved in that turn.

5th edition Codex SM made the LR's assault transports or some other name, meaning you can assault out of them just fine.

Most players in friendly games would let you do it with non-5th edition chapters, especially one so clearly assault-oriented as BT... but RAW is that you can't do it anymore.

Yea I'm seeing that now. Hah it even says that LR have "Front assault ramps" in the entry under access points, but never defines what that means.

Just one more reason to stick with guard until a new codex drops! =P

I disagree with any argument that says the codex is uncompetitive. That’s simply not true. I would agree with anyone who says that it’s boring.

I’ve played BT for a long time, and in 5th the only successful build I have found (albeit VERY successful) is spaming 20 man squads which move, run, fall forward backed up by Grimaldus who with clever deployment makes everyone fearless. I get a turn 2 charge EVERY game, and with 90+ bodies in your face, 40+ with preferred enemy even nids and khorne find it hard to manage.

A new ‘dex isn’t really needed because the army can’t win. On the contrary I can’t think of a game with my 5th ed build that I have lost. But it’s boring to only be able to have one viable set up of all the same thing. And we already had less toys than 4th ed marines. It would be kind of nice to have some of the new options.

I second the opinion that a solid errata or pdf document would work wonders. But when was the last time GW did something that made so much sense? I wouldn’t expect anything to happen with this army for a long time still.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I disagree with any argument that says the codex is uncompetitive. That’s simply not true. I would agree with anyone who says that it’s boring.

I’ve played BT for a long time, and in 5th the only successful build I have found (albeit VERY successful) is spaming 20 man squads which move, run, fall forward backed up by Grimaldus who with clever deployment makes everyone fearless. I get a turn 2 charge EVERY game, and with 90+ bodies in your face, 40+ with preferred enemy even nids and khorne find it hard to manage.

A new ‘dex isn’t really needed because the army can’t win. On the contrary I can’t think of a game with my 5th ed build that I have lost. But it’s boring to only be able to have one viable set up of all the same thing. And we already had less toys than 4th ed marines. It would be kind of nice to have some of the new options.

I second the opinion that a solid errata or pdf document would work wonders. But when was the last time GW did something that made so much sense? I wouldn’t expect anything to happen with this army for a long time still.

I definitely would not argue uncompetitive, but definitely boring, and no longer as effective in assault as they should be relative to other assault oriented armies. do you run a pure footslogging army in 5th, or do you throw other units into the 20 man mix?

apwill4765 wrote:

Kervin wrote:I think that the BT dex could be fixed with a good set of errata. This is coming from a SM player, BT dose not need a new dex yet (the only chapter that really needs it after BA is DA).

There are other armies that need new codices before BT, like DE and Necrons as well as WH/DH.

I disagree. With the new edition and new vanilla SM codex, we have become an extremely bland dex. The ability that really set us apart from regular marines (righteous zeal) has become completely obsolete with the new edition. 1) Because of the huge swing toward mechanization and MSUs, a rule that depends on footslogging is undesirable and 2) Consolidate into combat being removed puts a damper on its effectiveness.

Helbrecht needs to be brought in line with other SM special characters.

Chaplains are an irrelevant codex entry now because of the change to preferred enemy.

Having 2 special characters is out of line with every 5th edition codex, and it would be nice to see more of that.

BT needs the flavor put back in,at least imo. The reason I switched to guard from them in the first place is that I always felt I might as well have been playing C:SM and got tired of being crushed by BA in close combat.

For the most part that is all Fluff. Fix Land Raiders and BT will be one of the best mechanized armies there could be. And the chaplaines can be fixed with giving them the ability to give Furious Charge or change the EC to give that instead of preferred enemy. I personally think that if BT gets a new dex we will loss a lot of the good things we have (Land Raider spam, Termy command squads, and one-handed relic blades for the EC)

It based on the market plan of GW.

If GW want to sell more LRs to templar players, they could make it different in rulebook.

Personally, I hope for a named LRC(with some rules like meltas cannot recieve addtional D6 against it?). Since named dreads come back to rules, more and more named non-IC character appears in codices...this idea is not that mad.

And GW may bring new big toys to new codice. What would they have done to BA? (mini-thunderhawk?)

Think a lighter color armor for later in 2010.

BrassScorpion wrote:Think a lighter color armor for later in 2010.

Hmm, juicy, cryptic, can we pry anything else? Is that insider info or just an educated guess?

Also, to sort of redirect the thread, what happened to releasing the Chapter codices close together? That was a rumor from last June, was it just baseless chitchat?

apwill4765 wrote:
Also, to sort of redirect the thread, what happened to releasing the Chapter codices close together? That was a rumor from last June, was it just baseless chitchat?

I was pretty sure the rumor has been Marine codex then not Marine codex, then Marine codex then not Marine codex, and so on.

Brother SRM wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:
Also, to sort of redirect the thread, what happened to releasing the Chapter codices close together? That was a rumor from last June, was it just baseless chitchat?

I was pretty sure the rumor has been Marine codex then not Marine codex, then Marine codex then not Marine codex, and so on.

So with the fact that DH/WH codices are gone from GW site is it possible to more then one codex with lighter color armor (gray and white/green)?

BrassScorpion wrote: Think a lighter color armor for later in 2010.

Anyone who wants a new codex for the BT's is crazy, they are such a powerful army this edition.

You can make a steam roller army with BT's, against mech armies or no, they are very, very good right now. I run my DIY marines as Templars every now and then but I feel bad about it most games because they just utterly crush anything besides a serious tournament list.

And how are they boring? They don't play like any other marines army? They have some cool, unique rules and a play style that while it doesn't require a ton of tactical acumen, is different.

Any specific examples? By a fluke they have better smoke launchers(yawn)

By mistake they have an OP no brainer vow

They have Landraiders that apparently they cannot assault out of (doh)

They have a consolidate move that is near useless

Chaplains, useless

EC, not a bad unit but NO flavor, just a company champion really (in vanilla dex now)

a whopping 2 SC, there were more in the .pdf codex for BA


And they are boring because you can make an army that plays very similarly with just the vanilla dex, only better in many cases.

BrassScorpion wrote:Think a lighter color armor for later in 2010.

Grey, perhaps?

@apwill4765

Ha! You are funny, that was a good post, made me laugh.

Useless chaplains? Really? A chaplain that can have 6 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound, in5, 3 wounds is worthless? Wow, someone forgot to tell that to the two I used in my game Saturday that butchered everything they touched.

And old smoke is yawn inducing? hahahaha!!!!! Do you play 40K in 5th ed?

Always glancing and you can still get an obscured save means that you can have some of the most resilient vehicles in the game. Plus, 145 point predator annihilators, they must be boring, too, right?

The vow is a no brainer because it makes them amazingly good, how is that a negative? I agree it was unintentional but a detriment?

Assault Terminators with lightening claws and furious assualt for only 43 points.....that is boring too, right? With rerolls to hit and wound every round of combat no less. You can take 10 of them and run them right up the board, getting into combat turn 3.

The consolidate move is near worthless, really, what game do you play? A full strength crusader squad with a "useless" chaplain and cynobytes is one of the fastest, most powerful units in the game, and they are scoring to boot!

The Emerpror's champion has no flavor? What the hell do you want, for him to come on a hot dog bun? He is the most characterful unit in the list, he IS a crusading knight. How could you make a more knightly unit? He has to fight the other guy's champion, he has a sword, he wears armor, what am I missing?

And please, please show me a list that is like them with vanilla marines. Please, show me a 20+ unit that is scoring, crazy fast, brutal in assault, and loaded with extremely potent characters. I would love to see that list, because it does not exist. Or, show me the marine list that has all scoring units in a LRC, which makes a tank lovers dream army. Oh yeah, can't do that either with any other list.

How about 5 man, 2 assault cannon terminator squads with tank hunters for 255 points, those lame too? One of the best general purpose units in the game?

5 man las plas scoring unit, that weak too?

How about the 5 man assault squad with 2 flamers and melta bombs on every model, great, multi-use model, but I am sure that had you yawning too.

The land raider issue, is a matter for interpretation, no reasonable player is going to deny that, and a TO worth his salt is going to see that the assault ramp listed in their entry obviously means they function as normal.

Black Templars are a super powered army in 5th ed, and they are very characterful, as much as a marine dex can be different from all the other MEQ's. If you can;t see their uses, you don't know the game all that well.

apwill4765 wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I disagree with any argument that says the codex is uncompetitive. That’s simply not true. I would agree with anyone who says that it’s boring.

I’ve played BT for a long time, and in 5th the only successful build I have found (albeit VERY successful) is spaming 20 man squads which move, run, fall forward backed up by Grimaldus who with clever deployment makes everyone fearless. I get a turn 2 charge EVERY game, and with 90+ bodies in your face, 40+ with preferred enemy even nids and khorne find it hard to manage.

A new ‘dex isn’t really needed because the army can’t win. On the contrary I can’t think of a game with my 5th ed build that I have lost. But it’s boring to only be able to have one viable set up of all the same thing. And we already had less toys than 4th ed marines. It would be kind of nice to have some of the new options.

I second the opinion that a solid errata or pdf document would work wonders. But when was the last time GW did something that made so much sense? I wouldn’t expect anything to happen with this army for a long time still.

I definitely would not argue uncompetitive, but definitely boring, and no longer as effective in assault as they should be relative to other assault oriented armies. do you run a pure footslogging army in 5th, or do you throw other units into the 20 man mix?

Pure foot sloggers. in 1850 I have 4 maxed out sqds w/ PF & Melta gun. Two 5 man lasplas sqds. Champ, Grimaldus and a tricked out commander with 2 lightening claws (He is especially fierce). I've been doing pretty well. All ties or wins, can't think of a loss that I've had.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reecius wrote:
And how are they boring? They don't play like any other marines army? They have some cool, unique rules and a play style that while it doesn't require a ton of tactical acumen, is different.

Not a ton of tactical acumen is the problem. Run up the middle. They shot, you run at the closest thing. then you charge the closest. What I do deployment - turn 3 every game is exactly the same.

Yeah, true, which is why I don't run them all the time. They are fun to play, but do not require the most thought, granted.

Also, I find that non competitive players don't like to play against them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although with Chappys (and I always take the chappys) you can move at which ever unit you choose.

I run two maxed out Crusader squads and one in a LRC, the two big units both have a chappy meaning that I have a lot of control over where the unit moves.

Reecius wrote:
The Emerpror's champion has no flavor? What the hell do you want, for him to come on a hot dog bun? He is the most characterful unit in the list, he IS a crusading knight. How could you make a more knightly unit? He has to fight the other guy's champion, he has a sword, he wears armor, what am I missing?

The EC needs a shield, but other wise I did not know that you could get a chappy that mean. How did you get the 6A I come up with 5 on the charge.

I could see giving the EC the option for a storm shield, that would be cool.

6 attacks is,

3 base, +1 for terminator honors, +1 for 2 HtH weapons (I like L.Claws), and +1 for charging. It is the way Chappys used to be for everyone, back in 4th ed when you only ever saw chappys and libbys, never captains because chaplains were so much better. They average 5 dead MEQ's by themselves on the charge when equiped with L.Claws, brutal. Plus the ability to take cynobytes and to control where the crusader squads go makes them so amazingly good.

If you have more than 2 foot crusader squads I would say Grimaldus or a Marshall are mandatory, but I run 2 foot and 1 mounted squad and for that reason I always take 2 chappys.

Templar Chappies are some of the best, non special character, HtH marine characters in the game.

Combo that with 2 cheap pred's for long range anti tank and you have a really nasty army.

Chappy
Chappy
EC

20 strong crusader squad
20 strong crusader squad
15 strong crusader squad in LRC

MM Attack bike

Pred annihilator
Pred annihilator

You have an army that is very powerful, can shoot, has three very powerful scoring units, few kill points and is very, very fast. With that list I have only tied once against a tournament marine list and that is only because the game ended on turn 5, one more turn and I would have most likely tabled my opponent but it was a four objective game and a fluke combat kept him contesting one objective that he should have lost.

That is just one way to play them, too. You can build a lot of very powerful lists out of the Templar codex.

And I wanted to apologize to apwill4765, my post came out sounding really condescending, and there's no need for that.

Templars are nails though, and I feel that it is painfully obvious. But, not everyone sees things the same way.

Thanks Reecius.

Reecius wrote:@apwill4765

Ha! You are funny, that was a good post, made me laugh.

Useless chaplains? Really? A chaplain that can have 6 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound, in5, 3 wounds is worthless? Wow, someone forgot to tell that to the two I used in my game Saturday that butchered everything they touched.

And old smoke is yawn inducing? hahahaha!!!!! Do you play 40K in 5th ed?

Always glancing and you can still get an obscured save means that you can have some of the most resilient vehicles in the game. Plus, 145 point predator annihilators, they must be boring, too, right?

The vow is a no brainer because it makes them amazingly good, how is that a negative? I agree it was unintentional but a detriment?

Assault Terminators with lightening claws and furious assualt for only 43 points.....that is boring too, right? With rerolls to hit and wound every round of combat no less. You can take 10 of them and run them right up the board, getting into combat turn 3.

The consolidate move is near worthless, really, what game do you play? A full strength crusader squad with a "useless" chaplain and cynobytes is one of the fastest, most powerful units in the game, and they are scoring to boot!

The Emerpror's champion has no flavor? What the hell do you want, for him to come on a hot dog bun? He is the most characterful unit in the list, he IS a crusading knight. How could you make a more knightly unit? He has to fight the other guy's champion, he has a sword, he wears armor, what am I missing?

And please, please show me a list that is like them with vanilla marines. Please, show me a 20+ unit that is scoring, crazy fast, brutal in assault, and loaded with extremely potent characters. I would love to see that list, because it does not exist. Or, show me the marine list that has all scoring units in a LRC, which makes a tank lovers dream army. Oh yeah, can't do that either with any other list.

How about 5 man, 2 assault cannon terminator squads with tank hunters for 255 points, those lame too? One of the best general purpose units in the game?

5 man las plas scoring unit, that weak too?

How about the 5 man assault squad with 2 flamers and melta bombs on every model, great, multi-use model, but I am sure that had you yawning too.
a
The land raider issue, is a matter for interpretation, no reasonable player is going to deny that, and a TO worth his salt is going to see that the assault ramp listed in their entry obviously means they function as normal.

Black Templars are a super powered army in 5th ed, and they are very characterful, as much as a marine dex can be different from all the other MEQ's. If you can;t see their uses, you don't know the game all that well.

Whooooahhhhhh calm down there buddy, I'm not here for a fight.

But yea, in short, yaaaaaawwnn.

A smoke launcher rule that only differs from C:SM because of an accident of wording and being a leftover of 4th does not seem flavorful to me.

A completely unbalanced set of vows, which makes 3 of them COMPLETELY USELESS, again because they are outdated for 5th, is also very boring. Having ONE viable loadout for our "most characterful unit" is booooorrrrinnnngggggg

Assault termies are nice. . . who else gets assault termies at +40 pts /model? oh yea, vanilla marines. Difference being vet skills. But guess what? TH/SS termies make up for the lack of furious charge with their superior gear . . . so yea, yawn

Chaplains, awesome unit, litanies of hate, wonderful. Except oh yea, we already reroll missed hits every round

And yes, the consolidate move is useless, because I don't get to choose which direction to go. Dropping 150+ points for a few extra CC swings and to be able to steer angry marines in the right direction is not worth the chaplain purchase

Also, like I said, not underpowered at all. We are in complete agreement in that regard. However, they are very boring to me. That's a subjective assessment but it's one that is shared generally by the folks that patronize my FLGS


EDIT: Doh, just saw your follow up post. No worries my friend, I know how it goes sometimes, and the internet can kind of screw up tone.

And also, don't get me wrong, I love love love chappies. I own several myself, having different loadouts. The problem is that I am kind of an efficiency type player, and with a chappy you are paying at least some points for things you don't use (meaning litanies of hate). That just kind of irks me.

Also I should apologize for the tone in my reply, it was kind of goading, but I hadn't seen your follow up yet =P

No worries, I was was being a bit of an ass. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we need to be rude. It is easy to forget that on the net.

Yeah, "losing" litanies of hate sucks, but you gain so much and Chappy's help the crusader squads, I think they are still just pure awesome.

apwill4765 wrote:

Reecius wrote:@apwill4765

Ha! You are funny, that was a good post, made me laugh.

Useless chaplains? Really? A chaplain that can have 6 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound, in5, 3 wounds is worthless? Wow, someone forgot to tell that to the two I used in my game Saturday that butchered everything they touched.

And old smoke is yawn inducing? hahahaha!!!!! Do you play 40K in 5th ed?

Always glancing and you can still get an obscured save means that you can have some of the most resilient vehicles in the game. Plus, 145 point predator annihilators, they must be boring, too, right?

The vow is a no brainer because it makes them amazingly good, how is that a negative? I agree it was unintentional but a detriment?

Assault Terminators with lightening claws and furious assualt for only 43 points.....that is boring too, right? With rerolls to hit and wound every round of combat no less. You can take 10 of them and run them right up the board, getting into combat turn 3.

The consolidate move is near worthless, really, what game do you play? A full strength crusader squad with a "useless" chaplain and cynobytes is one of the fastest, most powerful units in the game, and they are scoring to boot!

The Emerpror's champion has no flavor? What the hell do you want, for him to come on a hot dog bun? He is the most characterful unit in the list, he IS a crusading knight. How could you make a more knightly unit? He has to fight the other guy's champion, he has a sword, he wears armor, what am I missing?

And please, please show me a list that is like them with vanilla marines. Please, show me a 20+ unit that is scoring, crazy fast, brutal in assault, and loaded with extremely potent characters. I would love to see that list, because it does not exist. Or, show me the marine list that has all scoring units in a LRC, which makes a tank lovers dream army. Oh yeah, can't do that either with any other list.

How about 5 man, 2 assault cannon terminator squads with tank hunters for 255 points, those lame too? One of the best general purpose units in the game?

5 man las plas scoring unit, that weak too?

How about the 5 man assault squad with 2 flamers and melta bombs on every model, great, multi-use model, but I am sure that had you yawning too.
a
The land raider issue, is a matter for interpretation, no reasonable player is going to deny that, and a TO worth his salt is going to see that the assault ramp listed in their entry obviously means they function as normal.

Black Templars are a super powered army in 5th ed, and they are very characterful, as much as a marine dex can be different from all the other MEQ's. If you can;t see their uses, you don't know the game all that well.

Whooooahhhhhh calm down there buddy, I'm not here for a fight.

But yea, in short, yaaaaaawwnn.

A smoke launcher rule that only differs from C:SM because of an accident of wording and being a leftover of 4th does not seem flavorful to me.

A completely unbalanced set of vows, which makes 3 of them COMPLETELY USELESS, again because they are outdated for 5th, is also very boring. Having ONE viable loadout for our "most characterful unit" is booooorrrrinnnngggggg

Assault termies are nice. . . who else gets assault termies at +40 pts /model? oh yea, vanilla marines. Difference being vet skills. But guess what? TH/SS termies make up for the lack of furious charge with their superior gear . . . so yea, yawn

Chaplains, awesome unit, litanies of hate, wonderful. Except oh yea, we already reroll missed hits every round

And yes, the consolidate move is useless, because I don't get to choose which direction to go. Dropping 150+ points for a few extra CC swings and to be able to steer angry marines in the right direction is not worth the chaplain purchase

Also, like I said, not underpowered at all. We are in complete agreement in that regard. However, they are very boring to me. That's a subjective assessment but it's one that is shared generally by the folks that patronize my FLGS


EDIT: Doh, just saw your follow up post. No worries my friend, I know how it goes sometimes, and the internet can kind of screw up tone.

And also, don't get me wrong, I love love love chappies. I own several myself, having different loadouts. The problem is that I am kind of an efficiency type player, and with a chappy you are paying at least some points for things you don't use (meaning litanies of hate). That just kind of irks me.

Also I should apologize for the tone in my reply, it was kind of goading, but I hadn't seen your follow up yet =P

Look at the bright side...at least the BT have viable army builds. They could be like the DA and be both boring and uncompetitive. 5-man Termie squads only,everything else except Veterans in 5 or 10 man units,only. Litanies is wasted on BT Chaplains,for the most part,but DA can buy a LRC...that they can't even fill to capacity. Then to top if off,GW gives the DA a massive shot to the crotch by handing their most flavorful army list,the Deathwing,to the Space Wolves.

I realize that most players with 4th ed codexes would like a new book,but there's other armies out there that need a new 'dex desperately before BT's.

Though I would love a new Black Templar codex so I could start them up, I would definitely take my ticket ant wait for the guys who have Dark angels, I know they definitely need an update bad.

TheTrueProtoman wrote:Though I would love a new Black Templar codex so I could start them up, I would definitely take my ticket ant wait for the guys who have Dark angels, I know they definitely need an update bad.

Yeah, being able to run another non wing list would be sweet.

i would love to see a DA update. i just switched from deathwing to BT because in close combat deathwing pretty much suck and are no different. so BT update would be sweet but from what i see in the codex BT seem to be alot better off than DA who pretty much have i think the hardest chance of ever winning