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A lot of smaller Force Creation applications including Forward Kommander got an email from a law firm in the US stating that "Army Builder" is a registered trademark by Lone Wolf.

Forward Kommander is not making more money then needed to pay for the domain registration and the force books needed to maintain the lists for Warmachine and Hordes.

Other applications using "Army Builder" have also been contacted. My guess is that Army Builder is losing terrain to new generations of force creation applications which trump it on both features and price point.

Forward Kommander has chosen to comply because they do not have the knowlegde and the weight to fight this.

Privateer Press themselves seems to have received a similar letter, in which they're "politely requested" to remove all notions of the expression "army builder" from the forums, and "educate the forum users that army builder is a trademark, and can only be used in reference to their product"... While protecting their trademark with regards to tool such as Forward Kommander and iBodger are well within their rights, I feel more than a little disgusted that they presume to tell us what which words we can and cannot use in certain situations.

Ask them if they xeroxed copies of the letters and if their lawyers wiped their noses with kleenex.

Ah, well.

Is Forward Kommander even in the U.S.?

Sometimes I am amazed at how words that define what a thing is can become property of a company.

I am a little dissappointed with Army Builder.

Forward Commander, from my user only knowledge, feels like a completely different product.

I do not know how they can do this.

Maybe I am slow, but can't they just change the name to Force constructor, or something similar?

It is words used to describe a thing, not a brand name, right?

Forward Kommander Dollhouse Army Layer Outer

I'd total copyright that.

Wait, Army Builder, a company founded on the idea of using other company's data, is going the IP route? This seems like dangerous ground for them...

Especially when the content of said software is fan-made.
(or so i understand)

The problem in this instance is that Forward Kommander uses as it's title: Forward Kommander Army Builder
As well as naming one of its' tabs Army Builder.

It's probably not a big deal for Kilvati to change the titles here. LoneWolf Dev probably should not have been allowed 'Army Builder' as a registered trademark as it's simply descriptive, but whatever - they got a trademark and are now defending it before resubmitting their application in April.

I wouldn't say that it's unfair that Lone Wolf got it as a trademark.

After all, it IS the name of the program.

This will hardly shake anyone. I propose a Monty Python like name as a form of protest.

* Forward Kommander's Super Software for the Making and Maintaining of Lists for a Variety of Games.
* Fowarrd Kommander's Wonderful Website for Creating Things for Armies Which Must be put Together for Various and Sundry Games.

You get the idea.

Lone Wolf can't afford an international lawsuit. Forward Kommander shouldn't give in, assert that "Army Builder" is a generic term and let Forward Kommander spend money on trying to get an injunction internationally.

Army builder is totally a generic term and people shouldn't give in on it. Worst case scenario is that you give in right when he finally files in your home country.

So if it was:

"Forward Kommander army builder"'

Instead of

"Forward Kommander Army Builder"

Would that be ok? I don't see were Lone Wolf has a legal leg to stand on.

I have a real problem with Lone Wolf Development, and their product "Army Builder". The name is very misleading. I bought their software and installed it. Immediately, I hit a snag: Where do the sprues go? I tried the CD drive first. Nothing. Then I looked for a slot in the box. I began to think they would swindle me to buy a USB attachment that would build my army. Then, I realized my error. I hadn't downloaded the Data Files! Happily, I downloaded the data files and stuck my Space Marine sprue back in the CD drive. I turned it on, and all it showed me was a bunch of lists. I started to understand what was going on, so I punched in '10 tactical marines' and picked the options for a Power First sargeant, a flamer, and a multimelta.

I waited, and nothing seemed to be happening. It told me how many points they would cost, but that's no good to me! I already own a codex. Then the smell of burning plastic made me concerned. I opened my (now ruined) CD Drive to find that Army Builder had destroyed not only my box of tactical marines, but part of my computer!

Feth you, LWD. From now on I'm building my own damn armies.

Building an army has been a term used by GW as long as I can remember. However the term 'build' is a euphemism, it's a substitute for 'buy'. See also: 'The GW hobby'.

Wolf lair doesn't have the money to carry out a lawsuit.

Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.

Try making a better product instead of pulling the kind of crap that GW pulls with its captive audience.

Vertrucio wrote:Wolf lair doesn't have the money to carry out a lawsuit.

Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.

Try making a better product instead of pulling the kind of crap that GW pulls with its captive audience.

*enter the demon*

So.. what would you like to see in the next piece of software that is going to compete directly with SWM.. er.. LWD's product?

Vertrucio wrote:Wolf lair doesn't have the money to carry out a lawsuit.

Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.
Army builder.

Try making a better product instead of pulling the kind of crap that GW pulls with its captive audience.

Try having a clue instead of saying that Wolf Lair's pulling "the kind of crap that GW pulls with its captive audience"(by the by--9/10 times, GW is in the right with their C&Ds. They don't throw it around out of boredom. Their legal consultants[people who they pay for a legal opinion, whose knowledge of copyright law isn't garnered from Wikipedia or Google] tell them that "Suchandsuch has an infringement issue going on. It looks like a small-time gig, so C&D it. They violated the clearly posted terms of usage on your main page, so inform them of that before bankrupting them").

Forward Kommander was, at the time of the C&D(which isn't a lawsuit, mind you. It's telling you to knock it off OR there will be a lawsuit) calling itself the "Warmachine & Hordes Army Builder".

That infringes upon Wolf Lair's registered "Army Builder" software by misrepresenting itself(even unknowingly) as an official Wolf Lair product.

I have a clue. Perhaps you should clue in and read what I say. Or rather, stop reading things I'm not saying into my posts. I am actually very well aware of what copyright allows someone to do since I'm a freelance artist who has to deal with that every day.

For example, I never questioned the legality of the C&D. You guys were the ones to jump in on the defensive without cause.

Second, Wolf Lair, up until recently, had been coasting by on a pretty outdated piece of software, and licensing model, because they were the only ones around.

Nowadays, they're really feeling the pressure from other efforts, often free, or web app based. Also, certain other wargames have gone with simpler point schemes requiring less need for AB.

And there's also wargaming, overall, still feeling the pressure from all the other media and hobbies.

And again, Wolf Lair may have the words Army Builder registered, but they don't have the money to actually sue and enforce it. It's mainly the threat that they're counting on, which is more than enough.

I'd rather see wolf lair put time and resources into a better product with a more modern interface than what they're fighting to protect now. If they'd been more on the ball over the years, they would have already been there.

"Feeling the pressure" doesn't excuse misrepresenting yourself.

I can't start distributing my homebrewed Coca-Cola as Coka-Cola, now can I?

Kanluwen wrote:"Feeling the pressure" doesn't excuse misrepresenting yourself.

I can't start distributing my homebrewed Coca-Cola as Coka-Cola, now can I?

You could probably get away with calling it Coca-Kola and claim that it's made up of both
cocaine and actual kola nuts, but the Coca-cola legal team would bury you in the end.

That's kinda the point.

While Forward Kommander(as far as I know) didn't purposely misrepresent itself...they're aware of the competition and the terms they used. It's silly to expect to get away with that without so much as *something* being done.

I don't buy it. I'm going to come up with a product named "Sand", and any time I find somebody using the word "Sand" from that point forward is going to get letters of C and D or even possible legal action. Taking a generic adjective and verb and putting them together should not in and of itself be a trademark. Now if they capitalized those, and tried to trademark it themselves, I could see the problem, but that isn't happening so who cares if they use the term army builder to describe what their software does?

Except that's not what they did.

The software has, and always will be called "Army Builder". It's a specific piece of software designed for a specific role.

Or should we get into how Microsoft Word works?

FoxPhoenix135 wrote: Taking a generic adjective and verb and putting them together should not in and of itself be a trademark.

Except they did get it registered as a trademark. That you don't think it should be doesn't change the fact that it is.

While I get why they did it, the irony of it still makes me chuckle. Come on, Lone Wolf, you use other company's IP for your program, so how can you really get too upset?

Just priceless.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:While I get why they did it, the irony of it still makes me chuckle. Come on, Lone Wolf, you use other company's IP for your program, so how can you really get too upset?

Just priceless.

No, they only make the software that facilitates the stealing and misuse of other people's IP. Big difference...

LW must make enough to be able to afford an attorney to create and send the letter.
An average person who does not have a trade mark attorney can not afford to defend themselves and may loose what ever they own.

FK should change title to Army Designer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also do not use logic and the law togther. That just silly.

To give you an update:

LW wrote that himself.
FK stopped saying Army Builder.

Forward Kommander wrote:Note! This is not an "Army Builder". This application in which you can build armies can not be called "Army Builder", because a company called Lone Wolf owns the trademark on "Army Builder".

LW wrote an apology to PP over the letter, trying to explain that he wrote it himself and didn't mean to 'cause such an uproar.

Lone Wolf wrote:First of all, I'm not a lawyer. I don't even pretend to play one on TV. I'm a software developer that also has to deal with business matters for a tiny company. Like many others, I don't always consult our attorneys on the text of every message before it is sent. The message to Privateer was not vetted by our attorney, and I didn't recognize a critical language issue in the message, which led to a major problem.

LW had a valid point but went at it the wrong way.

LW wrote:I also believe, in retrospect, that the language I used was unnecessarily stern. However, the core problem was using the term "improper" instead of "infringing".

(This bugs me 'cause he's admitting he was a jack--- about, but then tries saying that the real probelm was technical, not his jack---ery)
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