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Hi guys

Now that my Nids and Guard are painted, I have an itch to kick off army # 3. I dont think I have the patience to wait for BA's in April

Just wondering - for those of you who play Ultramarines (or same rules), are you finding it hard to be competitive or doing quite well? Im not exactly a tournament player but I do try to put up a good fight My meta-game environment seems to be 90% MEQ armies.

I've read the articles here - I'm struck by the (non character) HQ choices feeling a bit weak? Maybe I'm wrong about that. Also, bike armies sound cool and yet bikes are crazy expensive $$$. What are you guys using and what is or is not proving to be effective for you?

I'm looking at 1k points to start.

Vanilla mech lists like this one are very successful:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/01/your-space-marines-list-tables-people.html

I run Ultramarines, and they become increasingly competitive with each new unit I buy.

The standard HQ choices are not as weak as you think. For about a month I ran Vulkan lists, but I got tired of the mandatory assault terminators in a Land Raider and the loss of combat tactics. I now usually use a Terminator Librarian in a squad of Terminators. It uses Gate of Infinity to teleport them around and Vortex of Doom for fire support (I recently killed a squad of Howling Banshees with this unit).

The Chaplain is a decent option if you are taking an Assault Squad or some other assault unit that you expect to get the charge.

The Captain and Chapter Master are difficult to use and are a bit expensive. You should stay away from them unless you have a real plan.

I really don't know about bike armies. I still have no bikes whatsoever (except 3 Scout Bikes), and I have never played against this kind of army.

Because of your local metagame, you should try to get one or two Vindicators in your list. I have not had a chance to buy one yet, but every time I face one, it is my top target priority because I know it will kill me so fast. Don't let anybody tell you that having a high target priority is a bad thing.

Cool! how do you kit the Termis that are with the Librarian, and do you use a Pod to deploy those or just put on the table?

Marines are, kinda by default and probably by intent, inherently competitive. The basic Marine is the toughest individual troop in the game, or at least the gauge by which all others are judged. Mobile/mechanized SM's seem to do well, and would probably be different than your tyranid and Guard lists. Marines are pretty fast to paint, too, so you might be looking at army 4 in a few months...

oh heck, if I take more than a few weeks I'm doing something wrong!

Orangecoke wrote:

I've read the articles here - I'm struck by the (non character) HQ choices feeling a bit weak? Maybe I'm wrong about that. Also, bike armies sound cool and yet bikes are crazy expensive $$$. What are you guys using and what is or is not proving to be effective for you?

As for non-character HQ choice I love Librarians they are powerful and flexible. Captains, loaded out correctly, can be good to but they really shine if you take the command squad with them


or you can follow Flavius's advice and just find the nearest net-list and hop aboard the bandwagon

By vanilla, do you mean keep combat tactics? or no special characters?

If the Latter, which seems to be what you're asking, Mechanized, and librarian gate armies are REALLY FREAKIN FUN TO PLAY ZOMGWTFPWNDNOOBTASTICSAMMICHBACON......

Anyways... they're more than a little competitive and they don't require special heroes, althogh i love tigurius or however the feth you spell his name.

As previously stated A librarian in terminator armor, gate, and that doom thingy, or a librarian with nullzone and gate with sternguard (if you know you're going to be facing units without so much invulnerable saves, then null zone can be replaced by other handy powers of death) are both fantastic combinations, i prefer the sternguard myself, supported by scout bikers with locator beacons.

Mechanized armies can be amazing shooty objective holders, or assault oriented based on your preference.

basically, there are lots of ways to go without using special characters, but they sure make it easier and allow for even more variants.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Vanilla mech lists like this one are very successful:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/01/your-space-marines-list-tables-people.html

That list is illegal, I think.

You have to have 10 Marines to have a flamer, yes?

Monster Rain wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Vanilla mech lists like this one are very successful:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/01/your-space-marines-list-tables-people.html

That list is illegal, I think.

You have to have 10 Marines to have a flamer, yes?

Yes, and the points costs were off as well. To be fair, however, that list is not one of Stelek's lists, but a list that a reader e-mailed him.

Yes, very illegal. Vanilla Marines can't take any equipment on any model but the Sarge unless there's a full 10 men.

Typhoons are very good in this edition, as are the Predators he suggests, though. The double Autocannon Dread is also a good buy, and is basically a Walker version of the Hydra.

Perhaps it was meant to be a combi-flamer..?

Yay for the bandwagon!

Yeah, I think those are meant to be understood as combi-flamers on the sergeants. It's a standard configuration--five grunts and a combi-sergeant in a razorback. But the points are low on those.

Also you can change up the weapons and some of the choices quite a bit--melta dreads, mm/hf speeders and rhinos are all viable. My version of the bandwagon list actually uses a whirlwind (!).

But the basic principle is the same for effective marine mech armies: a librarian (mostly for null zone) leading units of tac marines in rhinos and/or razorbacks, and then fill up all the elite/heavy slots with basic dreads and predators and flesh out with a couple of units of speeders. It's space marine bread-and-butter: cheap, durable, redundant firepower.

It's insanity by the way, the whole idea of that list. A Space Marine list without a Land Raider full of Terminators is like a day without sunshine.

Do you play this game to spam autocannons or to kick in epic fashion? I'd rather go out like a Samurai than win every game I play with such a soulless list.

Monster Rain wrote:It's insanity by the way, the whole idea of that list. A Space Marine list without a Land Raider full of Terminators is like a day without sunshine.

Do you play this game to spam autocannons or to kick in epic fashion? I'd rather go out like a Samurai than win every game I play with such a soulless list.

Call me insane then (and soulless too, I guess). I've been trying to make a mechanized marine army work on combined-arms principles since the late 90s, but the rules didn't support it until this edition. After years of playing rhino-rush Chaos and Mech Eldar, it's a really fresh experience for me to play an army that doesn't either want to (1) drive forward and punch stuff or (2) fly around sniping and playing tag. Fun though those playstyles are, it has really sharpened up my tactical chops a lot to play a 40K army that has to take fire-and-movement into account the way that mech marines do, and can't fall back on assault or KP denial to save the day. It's very tactically pure. No gimmicks, no characters, no monstrous flying lashing creatures, no game-breaking wonky special powers; just bread-and-butter units that move around and shoot.

Granted, in an environment full of 4th edition non-mech armies, it can be kind of a "push this button to win" army, even in the hands of an inexperienced player. But against other 5th edition armies where opponents actually know the army's weaknesses, the wheels can come off really fast and really completely if you don't know what you're doing.

And then if you're playing in a fun-n-fluffy environment, you can significantly weaken up the list and add more "soul" by taking out firepower and throwing in a bunch of inquisitors and assassins and stuff. Except for the Culexus, I guess, who is soulless anyways.

What happens when you run into Land Raiders with that list? You have five lascannons and that's it. They're twin-linked, but that's still not necessarily enough-- remember that a twin-linked BS 4 lascannon has slightly less than a 5% chance to kill an AV 14 vehicle. You have no melta weapons, and your Dreadnoughts don't even have DCCWs. I'll be the first one to say that long range firepower is important, but that list seems to pursue it to the exclusion of other essential elements.

Fetterkey wrote:What happens when you run into Land Raiders with that list? You have five lascannons and that's it. They're twin-linked, but that's still not necessarily enough-- remember that a twin-linked BS 4 lascannon has slightly less than a 5% chance to kill an AV 14 vehicle. You have no melta weapons, and your Dreadnoughts don't even have DCCWs. I'll be the first one to say that long range firepower is important, but that list seems to pursue it to the exclusion of other essential elements.

My preferred version of mech marines includes multimelta dreads and multimelta speeders. Also I prefer las/plasma and assault cannon razors--I don't like the twinlinked las ones.

I'm not advocating for the exact rifleman/typhoon spam list on the link. I'm advocating for the list-building pattern for fully mechanized marines with dread/speeder/predator support.

I've played Ultramarines since 3rd edition, and over time I've aquired many units which I've experimented with. I used to try and run a mechanized army in 4th and I would get crushed for the most part. Now, my army lists mostly rely on deep striking. Most of the time I bring my jump chaplain and a squad of assult marines, my two tactical squads in razorbacks, one full man tactical squad with plasma and missle launcher, at least one of my 2 squads of terminators equipped with assult cannons, and my predator. Other units, such as dreanaughts, more tactical marines, and devistators are brought to bear when I can use them. I really don't like the MEQ spam that we've seen in 5th, to me it is more important to have a fun and fresh list than one thats going to be the eaisest to win a tournament with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also mentioned you enjoyed the thought of bikes. My brother has proxied a Khan model and he loves him, he wants to field even more bikes in his army. Of course, if you don't want to take special characters, thats understandable.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:What happens when you run into Land Raiders with that list? You have five lascannons and that's it. They're twin-linked, but that's still not necessarily enough-- remember that a twin-linked BS 4 lascannon has slightly less than a 5% chance to kill an AV 14 vehicle. You have no melta weapons, and your Dreadnoughts don't even have DCCWs. I'll be the first one to say that long range firepower is important, but that list seems to pursue it to the exclusion of other essential elements.

My preferred version of mech marines includes multimelta dreads and multimelta speeders. Also I prefer las/plasma and assault cannon razors--I don't like the twinlinked las ones.

I'm not advocating for the exact rifleman/typhoon spam list on the link. I'm advocating for the list-building pattern for fully mechanized marines with dread/speeder/predator support.

I don't find that pattern particularly compelling for Space Marines, though I agree it has potential-- if you're running it, Space Wolves are likely a better fit.

Fetterkey wrote:

I don't find that pattern particularly compelling for Space Marines, though I agree it has potential-- if you're running it, Space Wolves are likely a better fit.

Space wolves work better for a razorback spam version because you can get the flamer with just 5 marines, so the unit works out 15-25 points cheaper with better armament (and Ld8).

But IMO vanilla marines edge out wolves in the version that has rhinos because of the free Ld9 sergeants--and the heavy weapon options are different too, right? Also I personally feel like vanilla marine librarians and scouts are a better match for the way the army synergizes, but then I don't play wolves.

And also one of the big appeals for me, besides the really engaging gameplay that keeps you on your toes, is the fluffiness of it. Space marines slogging around on foot babysitting a lascannon? That doesn't exactly fit my expectations for the elite, fast-moving, drop-podding, precision-striking Astartes that first attracted me to this game.

I think Marines do Rhinos better and Wolves do Razorbacks better, unless you plan on taking advantage of Combat Squads. Do you have a list posted up anywhere? I'd like to see your take on mech marines.

Well I've been tweaking and scaling my army for different leagues and tournaments, but the basic template starts with Stelek's 2000 point best of marine list:

-Master of the Forge with conversion beamer
-Unit of sniper scouts with Telion, camo and HB
-3 full tac squads in rhinos with multimelta/flamer
-3 MM dreads
-2X2 MM/HF speeders
-3 Dakka preds

I don't own a MoF model and I only have 2 preds, and I like typhoons. Also I can't remember the last time I played a 2000 point game because where I am nobody seems to like those. So I scale it down this way:

-Librarian
-Sniper scouts (5-6) with HB, camo
-3 full tac squads with MM/flamer in rhinos
-2 MM/HF speeders
-3 typhoon speders
-2 MM dreads
-1 Rifleman dread
-2 Dakka preds
-Whirlwind

But that template has a lot of flexibility. You can swap the rhino squads for equal points in razor squads (which gets you about 4). You can drop the scouts or tweak them up or down. Typhoons are interchangeable with MM/HF speeders. You can switch the guns around on the dreads, and 3 dakka preds is actually better.

The object is to fill every elite and heavy slot with cheap, flexible, vehicle-based firepower, and then back them up with speeders. The only way to ruin the template is to add expensive, gimmicky, or overspecialized units (podding sternguard, terminators, land raiders, characters, venerables, LS storms etc.) Everything is multipurpose, cheap, expendable. Also...

...everything moves and shoots. Everything has AR11, 12 or 13 facing the enemy. The majority of weapons in the game are str4 or less, but with this army there's no target available for small arms at all unless you bust a transport first. Combat-squadding and leaving half your unit in the open makes the machine god cry, because now there's a target for all those heavy bolters and stuff. Nothing is more important than anything else most of the time, and nothing costs more than about 125 points, with most units being around 100 points.

You can castle up in a corner, or seize the center of the board, or keep everything in reserve and roll onto the table shooting. You can go from static/shooty to hauling along at 12"/24" per turn on a dime. You can feed a cheap unit to the enemy to hold him down or interdict bottlenecks with expendable vehicles while you blow him away. You can plink vulnerable targets from way far away, or zoom up and drop the templates and melta shots. Against a really weak HtH army (Tau) you can even pull a rhino rush with your transports hiding behind your AR13 heavies on the way to the assault. You can use your "parking lot" to control enemy pods and deepstrikes.

The sheer flexibility of the army makes it interesting to play, finding creative ways to use the multipurpose units in new situations. 200 points worth of guys who are going to stand in a ruin and lob lascannon shots downrange for six turns just doesn't offer me enough tactical variety as a player. 500-800 points worth of guys who are going to floor the pedal on their landraider to the enemy and get out to thump whatever they can catch in HtH? I already play chaos.