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My friend had just got a new Skaven army and he was running a doomwheel.The thing was for its shooting do you need to roll to hit or not?

必要無し

no

It auto hits at a STR determined by an arty dice and if it wounds this single str hit you then multiply the unsaved wound x D6.

You only roll the arty dice once to determine the strength of all 3 hits, one hit to each unit from the closest one and then the second closest and lastly the third closest, enemy or friendly.

So short answer: no rolling to hit, only a single roll to wound for each unit.

Ok thanks.

aerethan - not entirely correct.

As long as the closest unit lives through the first shot the second shot will hit it, and the third. You only move onto the next closest unit when the closest unit is destroyed.

In addition it is not entirely clear that the shots autohit - the language implies it, but it is not as strogn as it was in the previous pdf or 5th ed rules. Most people play that it autohits, however hopefilly the FAQ will clear it up!

Hjoey,

Nosferatu's got it right. And expect to run into all kinds of weirdness with the doomwheel. I'm sure the author had something specific in mind, but there's a lot of confusion about many of the aspects of its movement.

RZ

Like a cannon, if it doesn't say that you roll to hit as normal(such as for a helblaster or razordon) then you simply don't.

Erm, no, actually that is 100% the wrong way round.

The model has a BS and no *specific* allowance to autohit, therefore it does not. This is why there is only a sort-of allowance for autohitting using the wording of "will strike"

Will strike is a stronger argument than saying it may or may not hit.

It makes sense for it to auto hit as it has a chance of only being S2 and it has to completely destroy a unit before moving on, and even with 3d6 that is an unlikely event.

The old helblaster didn't have a rule that stated" hits automatically" but it did. And now it specifically says roll to hit as normal AFTER rolling to see how many shots are fired.

So the precedence is that needing a roll to hit is now specified in an unit entry i.e. helblasters, razordons etc. And not a rule about "not needing to roll to hit".

Cannon crews have a BS and still they don't roll to hit nor do they have a rule that specifies" no need to roll to hit".

I feel that the whole point to the doomwheel is that it's power is potentially great or potentially insignificant. This random nature is in keeping with skaven technology. Not only can it do as little as 3 S2 hits, it can also hit friendly units.

If you added rolling to hit for a whopping 3 hits with a wound modifier it would be essentially a worthless ability with bloated rules(not saying those don't exist).

Wait what do you mean 3d6 does it not just shoot 3 shots and if it is a more then 1 wound guy then they take d6 wounds.

No. It hits the unit once, that hit is then rolled on an artillery dice to determine the strength, then you roll to wound against the To of the unit, and if it wounds, you multiply that wound (after saves) by d6.

So say you hit a unit of 20 swords men. They Are T3, you roll an arty dice and roll a 4, so now all 3 shots of the zzap are at S4. You roll to wound against T3 for the first shot, then roll for the armor save(usually a 5+). If the wound is not saved, it is multiplied by D6, so lets say it rolls a 3, and 3 models are removed as casualties. Then you roll to wound with the second shot, and lastly with the third shot in this same manner.

In the event that a unit is destroyed by a shot, the following shots are resolved against the next closest unit.

um... what? Hell no. You people need to sort this out and stop mis informing people.

1) the multiplied wounds is "each unsaved wound is multiplied to D6 wounds" which is just like a cannons, bolt throwers, some magic items, etc.. Against 1 wound models, it does nothing as once they take 1 unsaved wound, they are dead anyway. It only matters if a multi wound model is wounded. Then the 1 unsaved wound (which didn't kill the model) is multiplied to D6 wounds. (HJoey is right)

2) The BS is for the crew as everyone has a BS even if they don't have ranged weapons. The use of the word 'strike' was a bad choice of words but when explaining the wiping out and hitting the next unit, they use the word hit. I'm inclined to say auto-hit but it really isn't clear at all if this is a ranged weapon that follows shooting rules as the bolts are 'unleashed' as opposed to being 'fired'. Ah, found the last sentence say that "No more shots are fired this turn ..." in context of a misfire, so I'm leaning towards having to roll to hit if the bolts are 'fired'

I really doubt the first comment, as a whopping 3 wounds would almost never kill anything off except for single monsters like orges or dragons etc. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying I doubt the answer and would have to research it. If that is true, than zzzap is damn near worthless and is a waste of confusion.

I understand WHY everyone has a BS attached, but may units which cannot fire under any circumstance have a BS of 0. The ONLY time where a cannon crews BS would matter would be if they abandoned the cannon to crew a helblaster or some similar machine.

That being said, I again refer to the precedence set by other war machines this edition having rules that specify a need to roll to hit. Things roll to hit when there are modifiers, and the lightning says nothing of modifiers.

The FAQ argument would likely be that the lightning is arcing, and it needs to end somewhere and thus automatically hits the first electrically charged thing it finds on the field, life forms being the lightning rod in this case.

And again it would make it a waste of space and a more confusing shot to take if you had to roll to hit, roll for strength, roll to wound, roll to save, determine wounds, roll a second hit and so on. And on top of that it hits friendly units, and has a vastly variable strength and can arc from one unit to another if the first is destroyed.

Far too many rules in there for a single weapon.

aerethan wrote:Far too many rules in there for a single weapon.

You're right there!

But as to wound multiplication, Deminyn is right, the bolts are exactly like a cannon hit or any other wound multiplier - i.e. they do nothing different to single-wound models, but can absolutely obliterate monsters. I figure the zzzap is a freebie and/or a light drawback, as it makes its charge nastier against big things or small units (which it's decent at fighting anyway), but might cost you a few skaven if it can't keep its lasers in its pants before it gets closer to the bad guys Frankly the wheel is somewhat undercosted @ 150 anyway ...

As to rolling to hit, I've never heard anyone suggest it has to. "Strikes" is damn near synonymous with "hits" ... Though people with RAW hard ons I suppose have an opening to punish the rules writer for using his thesaurus

- Salvage

I will agree then with the wound modifier as your reference to a cannon opened my eyes to my oversight.

A waste of a confusing(somewhat) three paragraphs then.

Weapons that cause multiple wounds are explained pretty clearly on page 31 of the small book.

I only have a big book, it has all the pretty pictures

And the small book and big book are page identical...

The only piece that irks me about the Doomwheel is that the warp lightning bolts don't ignore armor saves like the warp lightning cannon does. Sure they autohit and can kill big nasties, but it's still a crap shoot sometimes. Debating though about whether to run one with a HPA for rare choices . . ..

aerethan wrote:I really doubt the first comment, as a whopping 3 wounds would almost never kill anything off except for single monsters like orges or dragons etc.

You couldn't be more wrong. The *efficiency* of anything never is a reason. It does d6 wounds to any single model it has wounded, and it doesn't inflict 3d6 hits.

Secondly, it does very well say that a cannon crew does not use its BS by describing how they work. Please look up the rules on cannon.

A cannon crewman is the same who could man a Hellblaster. It's a simple human or other faction's crewman with the same profile. His handweapon does nothing either. It would be a hell of an effort to give them a different statline for no good reason.

Things roll to hit when there are modifiers, and the lightning says nothing of modifiers.

Units or models even roll to hit when there are no modifiers. What kind of argument is this?

And again it would make it a waste of space and a more confusing shot to take if you had to roll to hit, roll for strength, roll to wound, roll to save, determine wounds, roll a second hit and so on. And on top of that it hits friendly units, and has a vastly variable strength and can arc from one unit to another if the first is destroyed.

Far too many rules in there for a single weapon.

Everything except the S value is exactly the same as for a handgun or crossbow. I'm afraid if you find those confusing, you should get more than one die. That tends to speed up multiple to-whatever rolls immensely.

I never thought about it needing to use BS to hit the target before - I guess the folks in our area assumed because you don't need LOS and ignore terrain, as well as the "will strike" wording that it was an auto hit.
Plus the White Dwarf on Skaven battle rep (I know it doesn't replace the rulebook and they constantly screw things up in it like EOTG for Chaos) had everything autohitting.
Either way - it's still pretty good for what it does. Note - if D6 wounds became D6 models dead, it would be completely broken. Plus cannons and stone throwers would become even better.

This is exactly why I stopped using my doomwheels in favor of WLCannons. The rules are so vauge I just find it easier to avoid the argument and not use it unless its a very friendly game where we pre-agree on how it works.

I hear you on the Warp Lightning Cannon - for the cost, it's incredible. The only portion I don't like about it is the random Str, but I think thats balanced out by no AS and the template with no partials. And it's cheaper than a Great Cannon! I ended up personally dropping mine in favor of the Doomwheel because I like having a mobile, terror causing, T6 model running around with my HPA and 28 Plague Censer Bearers in a 2250 list. Call it PCB spam, but man does it work.
Your right though - the Skaven FAQ does need to come out soon because tournament season is kicking off and there is alot of room for interpretation for the Skaven book.

Ok, so you guys got me curious now. I run 2 doomwheels in my skaven army and I have been using their lightning attacks as autohits to this point. Everyone at my FLGS seems to agree as well. However, after going back and rereading the rules, my interpretation is that you DO have to roll to hit. Quote:

"Each warp lightning bolt has an 18' range and will strike the nearest (friend or foe), regardless.....ROLL FOR EACH BOLT SEPARATELY, measuring from the Doomwheels' base. "

What else could I be rolling separtely for? Not the strength, as it clearly states that one roll of the artillery dice dictates the Strength for all 3 bolts. Also, in the next paragraph, it says

"If you roll a misfire result something has gone awry. NO MORE SHOTS ARE FIRED THIS TURN AND YOU....."

Like all of the above posters, I think there was some intention by the author and we won't be exactly sure until a FAQ comes out but this has definitely got me thinking, I'll have to discuss it with my gaming group and go from there until it's FAQ'd.

Also, anyone who reads/has been reading this post, please do not follow aerethan's explanation of distributing wounds to single wound models. That is not the right way to do it. Page 31 of the rulebook clears this up nicely. Thanks Dakkaites.

Had to reread it after Orkimedes posted the underlined stuff - I believe what it's talking about is that you roll each bolt seperately to wound. If you kill the nearest model (say a Vargulf or something), thats when you move onto the next closest target.

As for the misfire statement - I think that might be a typo or something because you can only roll a misfire when determining the strength, which you should roll before you roll to wound the enemy. Kind of confusing as they really don't specify the order that everything should be done in, but the way we've been playing it is:

3D6 for your movement. Shooting phase - measure out to the nearest unit, enemy or friendly. Roll for the Str of the shot. Roll 1st dice to wound, resolve D6 wounds for unsaved wounds, then repeat if the unit is still alive. If it dies, roll to wound the next closest unit.

The "must roll to hit seperately" part is that you dont roll to wound against the same value, you have to reassess with each model you hit. this is different to the normal shooting rules.

Answered in the FAQ - you dont need to roll to hit, cannot stand and shoot, no randomisation while in CC

I think the errata is a record - 2.5 pages, 8 page FAQ in total.

While I concede I was wrong about the wound modifier, I was damn right about the auto hit.

This thread hurts my mind, i hate skaven so much for their shiny book of broken things....

I have to say, it wasn't obvious really, it was a damn confusing paragraph in the codex as I read it now.