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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 16:24:16
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/02/AR2010020202191.html
Canadian official seeks heart surgery in US
The Associated Press
Tuesday, February 2, 2010; 3:03 PM
ST. JOHN'S, Newfoundland -- The premier of Canada's east coast province is undergoing heart surgery in the United States this week because the treatment he is seeking was not available in his home province.
The announcement about of Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams' plans has triggered a debate since Canada prides itself on its universal health care system.
Kathy Dunderdale, the province's deputy premier who is taking over in his absence, said Tuesday that Williams decided to go to the U.S. for surgery after weeks of consultation with his doctors. She did not say where in the U.S. he would seek care.
Dunderdale says having the surgery done in the province was never an option. But she wouldn't comment on whether the type of surgery Williams was having was available elsewhere in Canada.
In Newfoundland, opposition Liberal Leader Yvonne Jones offered Williams her wishes for his full recovery. But she said he owes the public more of an explanation about exactly what procedure he needs and why he felt it necessary to go to the U.S.
Williams, 60, is an independently wealthy former lawyer and businessman who donates his premier's salary to charity.
He will take from three to 12 weeks to recover and will speak publicly about his condition once he is well enough to do so, Dunderdale said.
"Ultimately we have to be the gatekeepers of our own health," Dunderdale said.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 17:40:33
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Fixture of Dakka
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I'd be interested to see an unbiased (ha) study on how often this happens. It happening for one rich guy is far from it happening to the common folk, which more of us qualify as. I've met many Canadians with really positive stories about their health care experiences and most of the horror stories I hear seem to be from the news. Not commenting either way on the issue, but I don't know the grand scheme and it would nice to not feel like someone is trying to shove their version of the whole picture at me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 17:42:40
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Yep.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 17:54:32
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie
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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I'd be interested to see an unbiased (ha) study on how often this happens. It happening for one rich guy is far from it happening to the common folk, which more of us qualify as. I've met many Canadians with really positive stories about their health care experiences and most of the horror stories I hear seem to be from the news. Not commenting either way on the issue, but I don't know the grand scheme and it would nice to not feel like someone is trying to shove their version of the whole picture at me.
Rather then wait his turn he used money to jump the queue. Nothing new or unusual about that. It wouldn't have even hit the news if he wasn't the one responsible for the queue.
As for the system, it works and the vast majority of people get the treatment they need. As long as he is using his money to do I have no issues with it. If he wants to bill it back that's another story.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 18:06:15
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Actually the type of surgery was not available in the province.
Edit: I'm not stating an opinion here. I'd like to see how many plans in the US would cover such surgery before I did. I just like the irony and it fits my theory.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/03 18:12:19
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 18:34:11
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Inexperienced VF-1A Valkyrie Brownie
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Frazzled wrote:Actually the type of surgery was not available in the province.
Edit: I'm not stating an opinion here. I'd like to see how many plans in the US would cover such surgery before I did. I just like the irony and it fits my theory.
I know it can be hard at your advanced age Frazz, but could you please reconstruct that paragraph in a readable format? Not one source I can find even comes remotely close to identifying the type of surgery he had, beyond that it was a heart surgery for an apparently non life threatening condition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 18:35:29
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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I didn't type it, I posted it. Thats what your get with one of them thar liberal arts edumakashuns.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 18:39:25
Subject: Re:canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Here's a better one.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100202/national/nl_premier_surgery
Premier's U.S. date for heart surgery draws sympathy, anger as questions linger
Tue Feb 2, 7:04 PM
By Sue Bailey, The Canadian Press
ST. JOHN'S, N.L. - A torrent of public sympathy, anger and ridicule flowed into a vacuum of official information Tuesday about the heart health of Danny Williams.
The Newfoundland and Labrador premier's decision to have undisclosed cardiac surgery at an unnamed U.S. clinic also reignited a simmering debate about the state of Canadian health care.
His deputy premier, Kathy Dunderdale, waded into the fray with few details beyond stressing that treatment in St. John's wasn't offered.
"Having the surgery done in the province was never an option," she said.
Williams, 60, said nothing of his impending departure when he met reporters Friday after a meeting with Prime Minister Stephen Harper in St. John's.
The avid hockey and golf buff looked fit and rested at the time. He is said to have joked to friends that it will be toughest to miss his weekly chance to cut up the ice in a recreational hockey league.
Williams met over the last several weeks with local doctors before leaving town, Dunderdale said. As his government moves ahead with budget preparations, the premier is expected to be out of commission for three to 12 weeks.
"Any heart surgery is serious," Dunderdale said. "However, his prognosis is very, very good."
An outpouring of well wishes for the premier's speedy recovery hit the Internet and lit up open line call-in shows. In no-holds-barred Newfoundland fashion, many writers and callers expressed their support for an icon-like leader, and their distaste for what they considered media prying into medical affairs.
Others assailed Williams for creating confusion by not issuing a clear statement before heading for the border.
And there were those who boiled it down to matters of money.
"Gee, it must be nice to be able to afford to bypass Canada's crappy health-care system and its dangerously long waiting lists for surgery," said one person in a post to the Globe and Mail website.
"Some people are more special than others, I guess."
Williams made news in the U.S. too.
"This is what happens when you have a health care system whose goal is saving money, not lives," said a blogger with the Charleston Daily News.
Dunderdale declined to say what kind of procedure Williams needs, where and when it will take place or whether it was available elsewhere in the country.
She was asked what kind of message his decision might send to people who can't afford care in the U.S.
"Ultimately we have to be the gatekeepers of our own health and he has taken medical advice from a number of different sources," Dunderdale said. "He is doing what's best for him."
Williams, a self-confessed workaholic father of four grown children and a grandfather of four, also wanted "to do everything he could to have the best outcome and be back on his feet and back doing his job as quickly as possible," she said.
Dunderdale wasn't sure if Williams would cover his own medical costs.
"I would expect that he is eligible for all that the rest of us would be in terms of our own private insurance or government insurance and I'm sure if there's anything over and above that the premier will certainly take care of it himself."
Dunderdale will serve as the province's acting premier while Williams recovers.
Williams, an independently wealthy former lawyer and businessman, donates his premier's salary to his own foundation that funds local charities.
He is willing to explain his decision once he is well enough to do so, Dunderdale said.
Public versus private health care is a hot potato that has landed in many political laps. Former Liberal prime minister Paul Martin took flak in 2004 for the fact that his longtime physician ran a network of private clinics. Martin denied ever using private health care.
Former Tory prime minister Joe Clark was criticized by the former Canadian Alliance party after he said he had surgery at a private clinic in the late 1980s.
And former Quebec premier Robert Bourassa had skin cancer treatments in the early 1990s as part of a clinical trial at the U.S. National Cancer Institute in Bethesda, Md. An institute spokesman at the time said the U.S. government covered the bill.
The head of Eastern Health, the province's largest health authority, said Williams headed south on the advice of local physicians.
"He trusted us," said Vickie Kaminski. "And he trusted their recommendations - which were referrals out of the province."
Kaminski stressed that Williams had "some very high risk surgery done here in the past on his back."
Asked what sorts of cardiac procedures are not available in the province, she said it's more about appropriate treatment and cutting-edge technology.
"There are some very new techniques that come on the market that will be piloted and tested, and there will be a small locus of people across North America doing it just because there aren't enough patients who qualify."
Kaminski would not talk in any detail about the premier's condition, citing privacy issues.
Kaminski said there are 55 cardiac patients on wait lists for treatment in the province but "all of them are getting their surgery within the wait times that are being recommended."
Those are generally between four and six weeks, though the most urgent cases are handled right away, she said.
In an interview last year, Williams spoke candidly about the stresses and frustrations of the job he has held since 2003.
Williams openly mused about his occupational choice. Still, he has said repeatedly in recent months that he has every intention of running in the next provincial election slated for 2011.
Michael McBane, national co-ordinator of the non-profit Canadian Health Coalition, said a small fraction of wealthy Canadians have always headed south for treatment for many reasons.
But state-side care is hardly a trend and Williams is "a strong defender of the public health care system," he said.
Canadians can often get better care here than the U.S., McBane added.
"Our system is tremendous and we shouldn't be misrepresenting these kinds of stories to come to false conclusions about the quality of the public health care system."
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 18:43:41
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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I heard about this on the radio today. Some information:
- Yes, the type of heart surgery was not available in the province.
- He is the third person from Newfoundland to have to go out of the province for this type of surgery (ever).
- While he was unable to get the procedure done in the province, I'm confident that he was still using money to jump the queue. Even if the procedure wasn't available in Newfoundland, I can't imagine that he wouldn't be able to get it done in a major city (read: not in Newfoundland.) However, despite Canadian health care being very strong, there are wait times for things like this. Hence why the spokesperson wouldn't come right out and say "yeah, you can get this done in Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver..."
The biggest thing to take away from this about Canadian health care, Frazz, is that it's free; not speedy.
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The Battle Report Master wrote:i had a freind come round a few weeks ago to have a 40k apocalpocalpse game i was guards men he was space maines.... my first turn was 4 bonbaonbardlements... jacobs turn to he didnt have one i phased out. This space for rent, contact Gwar! for rights to this space.
Tantras wrote: Logically speaking, that makes perfect sense and I understand and agree entirely... but is it RAW? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 18:45:49
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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I don't actually believe its available on the public plan as they wouldn't confirm it was.
Dunderdale declined to say what kind of procedure Williams needs, where and when it will take place or whether it was available elsewhere in the country.
I also don't believe its available for Joe Shmo in the US either unless someone points it out to me.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/03 18:48:19
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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That's a good point. From some of what your second post mentioned, it sounds like he's going down there for an expensive/experimental type of treatment, which likely wouldn't be widely available (in Canada or the US).
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The Battle Report Master wrote:i had a freind come round a few weeks ago to have a 40k apocalpocalpse game i was guards men he was space maines.... my first turn was 4 bonbaonbardlements... jacobs turn to he didnt have one i phased out. This space for rent, contact Gwar! for rights to this space.
Tantras wrote: Logically speaking, that makes perfect sense and I understand and agree entirely... but is it RAW? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/07 08:13:57
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
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canada slow, some procedure are not as available, but free
u.s. less slow, not free, and hmo's want to kill you, but very advanced care
they both suck one just sucks less(take your pick)
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H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
location, location, locationMagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/07 08:18:14
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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Frazzled wrote:Thats what your get with one of them thar liberal arts edumakashuns.
Sir! I challenge you to a duel at dawn!
Anyway, it seems you're pleading equivalence, which is certainly not a bad case.
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/07 08:40:29
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers
Well I kind of moved near Toronto, actually.
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It is a news story (at least it would be in Canada) because what we call two-tier health care is starting to be debated again, especially with the federal parliament on otherwise unscheduled hiatus. Two tier meaning private care is available if people can afford it, more money is thereby put into the system and better care is provided for everyone so long as we maintain the same standards of public care. I mean heck it would even take a load off of public dollars, or you could do things like tax people for it....
I mean wealthy Canadians (which would presumably include our own doctors) can shop abroad anyway if they want to.
From what I hear health-care coverage in the States, or what we call the "social blanket" or "social network" or whatever is pretty poor but I mean it is like hearing about people getting tortured in Africa or East Asia. I mean you have FOOD STAMPS. It can't be THAT BAD.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/07 12:17:09
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Fixture of Dakka
Manchester UK
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I really don't see the problem. On the rare occasions that certain treatments (i.e new, experimental treatments that haven't been pioneered in the UK) aren't available here, the NHS has been known to send people to the US (and other countries, IIRC) for treatment. Other countries send patients to the UK for certain things. Big deal.
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Cheesecat wrote:
I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/07 12:38:02
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator
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It sort of has undermined the credibility that any Canadian may have when speaking about our public healthcare in a rational discussion about its benefits. Not that I am saying our healthcare is without its flaws, but I can already imagine this article is going to be cited in every healthcare discussion/debate thread for the next few months.
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Frazzled wrote:Modquisiiton on: this thread is so closed its not funny.
DR:80-s---G++M--B--I+Pw40k95/re#+D+A++/eWD283R+T(D)DM+ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/07 13:52:38
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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That's only because most people argue in a very basic, emotional way about such things.
Think about it rationally. This guy has paid his taxes which go to support the system for the benefit of everyone.
Now he volunteers to spend his own money to go to the USA for a new kind of treatment which is not generally available because it is too expensive.
By doing so, he leave the national system free for people who do not have the money to go private. He also subsidises the continued development of the expensive new treatment which eventually will be rolled out in the national system once it becomes cost effective.
It looks like a win win win situation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/02/07 15:08:23
Subject: canadian premier seeks heart surgery in US
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Aspirant Tech-Adept
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ok, let me see if i can sum this up for people. as ive lived in the eastern provinces and know a bit about why such a thing as this happens.
1. not all cites or provinces have the money to lure specialist doctors. climate, money and restrictive rules often mean that some of the best doctors go to the states of elsewhere. its not a new thing, its been happening alot over the past 40 years. the altlantic provinces simply dont have the resourses to keep doctors. not when those doctors are enticed away by larger ammounts to say the states. the problem doesnt only stop at doctors though, nurses, and teachers are also lured away.
2 the basic healthcare in canada is pretty good. but were not in a position to have every kinda doctor for every kinda treatment, experimental or otherwise. so some people go ot the states or even (if you can belive it) Europe and mexico. because thats where the specialist would be.
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