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I was checking out the Tyranids codex, and while the fluff is terrifying, the actual combat stats are not quite as bad as I feared. The majority of their ranged weapons have a high AP rating (5 or nothing at all). Most have a strength of 4-6, but they all have great range (18-36 on some). They are also, ALL ASSAULT WEAPONS. Which causes some problems. you have to trick them into difficult terrain (slows them down) or into a narrow area (300 style).

their close combat weapons is where they really shine though. Extra re-rolls, rending abilities and fast initiative in CC make then quite deadly.

The real bad news is that several troop, fast attack and elite choices all have 3 wounds per model. Thats really tough.
Luckily, with the exception of the more monstrous Tyranids, the regular guys have pretty weak armor. Almost every model except HQ choices has a 4-5+ armor save (unless you pay for upgrades through the nose).

regular flamers are AP 5, so genestealers, lictors, shrikes, raveners, deathleapers are all auto-wounded (5+ save ignored), heavy flamers are AP 4 so tyranid warriors, biovores, broodlords, harpys, hive guard, spores and all the above are auto-wounded (4+ save ignored).

Krak missiles, on a hit will auto-kill a warrior (AP 3, Strength 8 where a warrior is toughness 4, so 3 wounds doesn't matter its an auto-kill), swarms, biovores/pyrovores, lictors, the parasite, deathleaper, hive guard, shrikes and a few more.

Heavy bolters score hits on almost anything (AP 4, ignoring 4+ saves on warriors, genestealers, broodlord, biovore, spores, harpy, and hive guard).
Melta-guns, plasma or las-cannon all have AP 2 or lower, making them auto-wounders (if they hit) on anything not protected by an invulnerable save or cover (since when do tyranids take cover?) and a Lascannon has Strength 9, meaning that it auto-kills any model with a toughness of 4 or lower, which is every tyranid except broodlords, carnifexs, tervigon, tyranid primes, old one eye or something equally special and brutal.

Due to synaps range (12 inches) they must also be tightly grouped, making them cold meat for template weapons, blast markers and anything twin-linked.

So, in essence, against Tyranids rapid fire weapons suck, assault, blast and template weapons rule, stay out of hand to hand range (or be better at it then they are, a tall order) and keep a couple of heavy weapons around for the monstrous models. Keep using heavy weapons (lascannon, krak missiles) to take down models with multiple wounds.

If using vehicles, screen your vehicles with infantry, that they can use their heavy weapons (a land raider has two twin linked las cannon and a twin-linked heavy bolter. Use the lascannon to kill warriors or other multi-wound models and use the heavy bolters to shred the gaunts or genestealers before they get into CC).

(since when do tyranids take cover?)

Since players wanted to conserve their forces until they commit?
Fluff does not translate to how everyone plays.

As for the T4 stuff, Instant Death is no mystery.
In general, it's just easier to shoot them to death. Their counter is the multiple deployment options available to them. So it comes down to target priorities.

Due to synaps range (12 inches) they must also be tightly grouped

I don't think it's as true as you make it sound it to be, they need only one model within that 12" to get the bonus...so they can spread out pretty well.

against Tyranids rapid fire weapons suck

Really...there is a big "depends" with rapid fire weapons.
They are best at cleaning up squads that WILL get close to you. Double the ranged fire power can be preferable to charging into a unit that has Furious Charge, prefereed enemy (Named Tyrant gift) and that you take Dangerous Terrain Tests to charge if a Venomthrope is nearby.

I can see how the bugasaurs could cause some serious problems, but so far I haven't seen it. Granted I've only played 3 games against them, one was a relative noob, but the other two were against a serious tourny gamer. I play combined arms IG, and I think the Nids have a hard time with so many guns. Shoot the big stuff from range, rapid fire the little stuff when it gets close. Don't sweat the block of carnifii, just move away from their slow advance. weather the storm of poppy outy things and outflankers. If they spod apply a little =I= action.

I know there are tons of tricks and crazy special chars I haven't seen yet, but after three tables I can talk a little smack.

Redwunz wrote:I can see how the bugasaurs could cause some serious problems, but so far I haven't seen it.

me either, they are just to pricey 240+

@OP: you use the words: "auto-wounded" a lot. You sure you understand how AP and instant death works?

Rapid fire weapons and other stuff with a high number of attacks will be better against Monstrous Creatures than infantry. A Plasma Gun, for example, is twice as dangerous to a Carnifex as a Plasma Cannon because it has the potential to do two wounds.

I'm hoping I get my first game against the new 'nids tomorrow. I understand there will be a Deathleaper involved so that should be fun...

I'm very happy that they're not Eternal Warrior anymore though. That was the worst.

Illumini wrote:@OP: you use the words: "auto-wounded" a lot. You sure you understand how AP and instant death works?

To add to this, you know that you still have to roll to wound, right?

so has the IG's Punisher tank found a purpose? bugswatter?

The punisher still stinks, im afraid. Pask makes it better, but the cost is just too high for the reward.

'Nids are best dealt with via vehicle spam and lots of anti-tank (thus anti MC) shots. Plasma guns are nice, as are flamers, but really its all about killing the big stuff and keeping everything in transports moving over 6 inches a turn.

If it wasnt for the elite units 'nids would be almost unplayable in most larger tournies.

I really hate the Trygon now. I thought I'd try going to a tournament without Assault Terminators today, and I most definitely won't be making that mistake again.

Plasma Guns and Assault Terminators are the way to go, I think. New bugs, same as the old bugs.

Unless it's a Swarmlord, but you should really do your best to shoot that to death.

As an interesting side note, I was utterly disrespecting Gaunts and Genestealers with a Thunderfire Cannon. Sure, this just made more Tervigon baby-batter but it really is satisfying to see the opponent taking handfuls of models off the table.

Eh, the trygon is a good example of the new nids. It can dominate games if the enemy is unprepared, but if the enemy has the right tool, they fold far too easy.

It makes the tyranids seem way overpowered at first glance, and thus will give the 'nids an undeserved reputation as a broken powergamer army. Any comp judges will be very harsh, to be sure, and most likely 'nids will get hit in sportsmanship as well for bringing what is seen as an army that is unfun to play against.

Who said anything about them being overpowered? I certainly didn't. I lost the game, but in retrospect I suppose I should have just ran away from it.

I don't think it's broken, I just happened to be one of the unprepared that you mentioned. I also happen to think that Assault Terminators will be the right tool in the next game I play against them.

thats one of the reasons i dont like `nids, their ap sucks.

Monster Rain, I wasnt trying to say you thought they were overpowered (and I clearly dont think they are overpowered either). Based on your first post, I saw you already knew how easy they are to deal with via THSS termies.

No, my comments were more observation with an eye to new players to the game, comp judges and sports scores, who might not understand how easy the 'nids are to kill. To them, I am sure the 'nids will APPEAR overpowered, despite not actually being overpowered.

There are still people taking powerswords on their sarges and HQs, and heavy bolters as their main weapons, for example--either because they dont know any better or because they think powerswords and heavy bolters are 'compy, fluffy' weapons. Nids simply love playing against such armies--how is the powersword player supposed to feel? How would a comp judge feel about the 'nids comp score compared to the 'compy, fluffy' powersword heavy bolter tactical marine army?

I played against a horde ork player running no powerklaws, who was stating big choppas were more fluffy for his force. At the end of the game, his army wiped to a man, he was bitter and stated he would have won if he took powerklaws and was 'cheesy', or if I wasnt playing such a 'cheesy' army in the first place. Really, how fair is that to a tyranid player?

Killroy wrote:you have to trick them into difficult terrain (slows them down)

Unfortunately, so much of the army has 'Move through Cover' that this isn;t nearly as an effective strategy as one would hope.

Going back a few posts, I have to say the Punisher with Pask is a killer of MCs. I had him kill big bug after big bug in my last couple games. I laid 11+ wounds per turn (pre-save) on a brood of Carnifexes for three turns. That hurts and I don't care who you are. Sure it is still a terrible tank, but it has it's place.

Redwunz wrote:Going back a few posts, I have to say the Punisher with Pask is a killer of MCs. I had him kill big bug after big bug in my last couple games. I laid 11+ wounds per turn (pre-save) on a brood of Carnifexes for three turns. That hurts and I don't care who you are. Sure it is still a terrible tank, but it has it's place.

If your opponent is taking broods of Carnifexes then he's got more problems than facing Punisher tanks...

i play orks and at first i was terrified of the tyranids with thier high #of atks, high initiative, and lets not forget that WS and the add ons like venom sacs and seeds. but really, a big trick is that if you know they are going to assault you, just assault them firs. as for their bug-o-sauras and gigantic worms, just unleash lots of AP 2 and 3 DAKKA from lootas, rokkits, and possably to extent of luck, zzap guns, and theyll drop, just space ur units out to prevent an inevitable loss due to deep strike.

Orks are tyranids, only better!

6 point shoota ork = better than termagant in shooting, better than termagant and hormagant in assault, and t4. And fearless most of the time. And carrying a hidden 2 wound klaw. With actual transport options. And heavy weapon options.

It only gets bad for the orks when they get charged with the nid's having a few combat buffs stacking up. When you add a 195 point tervigon, a 195 point tyrant, and 55 point venomthrope, and 2 short range psychic powers, then ya the 5 point termigant is better than the 6 point shoota ork... At least 380 points in 2 mc's devoted just to make the one unit of gants > orks.

You know what makes me laugh? When 'Old Zogwort' turns the tervigon into a squig!!!! goood times...

Da BLUE orks wrote:You know what makes me laugh? When 'Old Zogwort' turns the tervigon into a squig!!!! goood times...

Doesn't work. Zogwort's curse only affects independent characters and the Tervigon is not an independent character.