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Can a BT chaplain be given a pair of lightning claws?

The BT chaplain comes with the standard crozius arcanum, but can be given any item from the BT armory. This armory includes pair of LC. Because he is automatically armed with a crozius, how does this interact with a pair of LC if taken?

You pay for the pair of LC. However, the original cost of the crozius is already included in the chaplain cost so you do not subtract anything from the cost of the chaplain when you get the pair of LC.

So while the cost of the pair of LC is set, you are actually in reality paying more for them since you are not getting reimbursed for the crozius and instead are just kinda throwing it away.

apwill4765 wrote:Can a BT chaplain be given a pair of lightning claws?

The BT chaplain comes with the standard crozius arcanum, but can be given any item from the BT armory. This armory includes pair of LC. Because he is automatically armed with a crozius, how does this interact with a pair of LC if taken?

Brother Ramses wrote:You pay for the pair of LC. However, the original cost of the crozius is already included in the chaplain cost so you do not subtract anything from the cost of the chaplain when you get the pair of LC.

So while the cost of the pair of LC is set, you are actually in reality paying more for them since you are not getting reimbursed for the crozius and instead are just kinda throwing it away.

Actually, the Chaplain cannot buy 2 Lightning Claws.

The BT Armoury is very explicit that they can have 1 Two handed Weapon and 1 One Handed Weapon OR two 1 handed weapons. The crozius arcanum is a 1 handed weapon, so buying the LCs (which are two single handed weapons) means you are breaking this rule. Nothing allows you to get rid of the crozius arcanum, so you cannot.

As such, a BT Chaplain can have a crozius arcanum and ONE LC, it can never have 2 LC

Wouldn't a BT chaplain with 2 LC be fulfilling the rule of two one-handed weapons? I mean by your standard no model would be able to swap out weapons.

Gwar! wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:Can a BT chaplain be given a pair of lightning claws?

The BT chaplain comes with the standard crozius arcanum, but can be given any item from the BT armory. This armory includes pair of LC. Because he is automatically armed with a crozius, how does this interact with a pair of LC if taken?

Brother Ramses wrote:You pay for the pair of LC. However, the original cost of the crozius is already included in the chaplain cost so you do not subtract anything from the cost of the chaplain when you get the pair of LC.

So while the cost of the pair of LC is set, you are actually in reality paying more for them since you are not getting reimbursed for the crozius and instead are just kinda throwing it away.

Actually, the Chaplain cannot buy 2 Lightning Claws.

The BT Armoury is very explicit that they can have 1 Two handed Weapon and 1 One Handed Weapon OR two 1 handed weapons. The crozius arcanum is a 1 handed weapon, so buying the LCs (which are two single handed weapons) means you are breaking this rule. Nothing allows you to get rid of the crozius arcanum, so you cannot.

As such, a BT Chaplain can have a crozius arcanum and ONE LC, it can never have 2 LC

I was afraid of this, because there is no option to "replace" its weapons as with most models. ah well.

ty both for the input

Yea reading the armory page, it says "models with access to the armory may select up to two weapons". The weapons a model already has counts toward this total? It could be read that since the chappy has access to the armory, he has access to two weapons from it. Whether or not his default weapon counta toward this total I think may be up for debate.


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It certainly looks like he must take the crozius though. Bummer



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Although, the Crozius does not appear in the armory, so can't the Chap purchase two weapons from the armory, in addition to his default wargear? isn't there a distinction between weapons which are "wargear" and weapons which are available to the armory?

Gwar! wrote:The BT Armoury is very explicit that they can have 1 Two handed Weapon and 1 One Handed Weapon OR two 1 handed weapons.

The Armoury section in my codex simply says that they can select up to two weapons, one of which can be two-handed.

Already having a Crozius has no effect on this. There is no limit placed on how many weapons the model can have... just on what they can select from the Armoury.

Exactly, if they have a Chrozius selected for them as standard, they cannot then select two more weapons.

The Crozius is not selected from the Armoury.
The Armoury page tells you what can be selected from the Armoury.

It has nothing to do with the equipment the character already has.

Gwar! wrote:Exactly, if they have a Chrozius selected for them as standard, they cannot then select two more weapons.

The Crozius is not a selection. You never choose to have the Chaplain equipped with it. The Chaplain comes equipped with it when you purchase the model for X points. Per the rules mentioned earlier, you may then select up to 2 weapons from the Armoury. So yes, you can get to LC for the chappy.

-Yad

Doh! Not fast enough...

The chaplain entry states:

A Chaplain may be given any equipment allowed from the Black Templars Armoury.

So that clears up his entry. And like I mentioned earlier, 2 LC would fulfill the 2 single-handed weapon requirement.

But he cannot be allowed to select 2 LC because he already had a 1 handed weapon selected as standard.

The Emperor's Champion has the Black Sword as standard equipment, however his entry specifically states he cannot take any additional gear.

The chaplain has no such restriction. In fact it tells you ANY in the entry.


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Look on page 30 as well Gwar under "Options":

Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated.

But the Chaplain does not get upgrade weapons. He selects weapons from the armoury. A Crusader Squad has upgrade weapons, as they have "may take x weapon for y points".

Brother Ramses wrote:The Emperor's Champion has the Black Sword as standard equipment, however his entry specifically states he cannot take any additional gear.

The chaplain has no such restriction. In fact it tells you ANY in the entry.


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Look on page 30 as well Gwar under "Options":

Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated.

That's the rule I needed to see. I'm convinced.

pg 30 BT codex: "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated"


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Gwar! wrote:But the Chaplain does not get upgrade weapons. He selects weapons from the armoury. A Crusader Squad has upgrade weapons, as they have "may take x weapon for y points".

2 lightning claws, which give +1 attack and reroll wounds at +30 pts, aren't an upgrade to a crozius, a regular pw?

apwill4765 wrote:That's the rule I needed to see. I'm convinced.

pg 30 BT codex: "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated"

And as I pointed out, this does NOT apply to the chaplain.

If this were the case, then a Marshal who buys a Bolt Pistol and then a Power Weapon loses the BP.

Gwar! wrote:But the Chaplain does not get upgrade weapons. He selects ANY weapons from the armoury. A Crusader Squad has upgrade weapons, as they have "may take x weapon for y points".

/fixed

And re-rolling to wound power weapon attacks is not an upgrade over regular power weapon attackes?

apwill4765 wrote:2 lightning claws, which give +1 attack and reroll wounds at +30 pts, aren't an upgrade to a crozius, a regular pw?

No. They are selected from the Armoury. They are not an upgrade weapon and they do not replace anything.

Gwar! wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:2 lightning claws, which give +1 attack and reroll wounds at +30 pts, aren't an upgrade to a crozius, a regular pw?

No. They are selected from the Armoury. They are not an upgrade weapon and they do not replace anything.

Where are upgrades selected from?

Gwar! wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:That's the rule I needed to see. I'm convinced.

pg 30 BT codex: "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated"

And as I pointed out, this does NOT apply to the chaplain.

If this were the case, then a Marshal who buys a Bolt Pistol and then a Power Weapon loses the BP.

How? He is still within the "two single-handed weapons" umbrella. Just as a chaplain, upgrading his crozius and bolt pistol to a pair of LC loses the crozius/bp and remains within the 2 single-handed requirement.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But the Chaplain does not get upgrade weapons. He selects ANY weapons from the armoury. A Crusader Squad has upgrade weapons, as they have "may take x weapon for y points".

/fixed

And re-rolling to wound power weapon attacks is not an upgrade over regular power weapon attackes?

-Sigh- Yes, he can select any weapons, but is still limited to selecting 2 one handed or 1 one handed and a two handed. He has a CA selected for him as standard. He Cannot get rid of it in any way, and thus he cannot buy 2 lightning claws.

But in any case, I can see where this thread is going (that is, I argue RaW, others argue what they want the rule to say and flame me, and then a mod comes and I get the blame for it), so I'm going to quit while I can.

Initially I would have said that they could take LCs (which I have done as a BT player with my friends) but after carefully rereading my codex, I think Gwar! may be right... unfortunately for my friend Chaplain Klaus.

"Models with access to the Armoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon."

I would argue that a model's starting wargear is "selected" for it, since the BT codex seems to use "equipped", "armed", and "selected" interchangeably.

Since the Armoury entry doesn't specify select up to two weapons from the Armoury - in which case I would argue that since the Crozius is not in the Armoury, they can take additional weapons - therefore the two weapon limit on the BT armoury includes weapons already included in the model's entry.

So no LCs on my Chappies anymore.

Gwar! wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But the Chaplain does not get upgrade weapons. He selects ANY weapons from the armoury. A Crusader Squad has upgrade weapons, as they have "may take x weapon for y points".

/fixed

And re-rolling to wound power weapon attacks is not an upgrade over regular power weapon attackes?

-Sigh- Yes, he can select any weapons, but is still limited to selecting 2 one handed or 1 one handed and a two handed. He has a CA selected for him as standard. He Cannot get rid of it in any way, and thus he cannot buy 2 lightning claws.

But in any case, I can see where this thread is going (that is, I argue RaW, others argue what they want the rule to say and flame me, and then a mod comes and I get the blame for it), so I'm going to quit while I can.

I.. don't think you're right per raw, which say that default weapons are replaced unless otherwise stated. Where do the rules say that the chaplain CAN'T replace his default weapon?

Poor, poor Gwar!

I am quoting page numbers and rules to you while you have yet to point out a single rule or page number that backs up your argument.

Nice exit.

Xca|iber wrote:Initially I would have said that they could take LCs (which I have done as a BT player with my friends) but after carefully rereading my codex, I think Gwar! may be right... unfortunately for my friend Chaplain Klaus.

"Models with access to the Armoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon."

I would argue that a model's starting wargear is "selected" for it, since the BT codex seems to use "equipped", "armed", and "selected" interchangeably.

Since the Armoury entry doesn't specify select up to two weapons from the Armoury - in which case I would argue that since the Crozius is not in the Armoury, they can take additional weapons - therefore the two weapon limit on the BT armoury includes weapons already included in the model's entry.

So no LCs on my Chappies anymore.

See my above quote on pg. 30, where upgrade gear replaces standard gear.

Also, Gwar!, since when do you bow out for fear of being flamed? Are you sure you aren't just incorrect and ducking out? Don't take that as an insult, but if you had an argument about the page 30 quote, instead of attacking me and saying I'm not arguing raw (even as I quote raw), I want to know it, so I can tell army builder they have an error in their BT building program

Xca|iber wrote:Initially I would have said that they could take LCs (which I have done as a BT player with my friends) but after carefully rereading my codex, I think Gwar! may be right... unfortunately for my friend Chaplain Klaus.

"Models with access to the Armoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon."

I would argue that a model's starting wargear is "selected" for it, since the BT codex seems to use "equipped", "armed", and "selected" interchangeably.

Since the Armoury entry doesn't specify select up to two weapons from the Armoury - in which case I would argue that since the Crozius is not in the Armoury, they can take additional weapons - therefore the two weapon limit on the BT armoury includes weapons already included in the model's entry.

So no LCs on my Chappies anymore.

Note that the Chaplain entry states,

Options: A Chaplain can be give any equipment allowed from the Black Templars Armoury.

It doesn't state ADDITIONAL equipment, it says any equipment. If is said "additional equipment" I would say Gwar is right since that would be taking into account the equipment he is already equipped with as standard. However it doesn't so therefore any of his equipment can be traded out via the Options rule on page 30.

By Gwar's example, since the chaplains statline reflects power armour (3+ save) you would not be able to issue the chaplain terminator armor since "power armour is standard" and the chaplain could not have his "standard armor" as well as terminator armour.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:Initially I would have said that they could take LCs (which I have done as a BT player with my friends) but after carefully rereading my codex, I think Gwar! may be right... unfortunately for my friend Chaplain Klaus.

"Models with access to the Armoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon."

I would argue that a model's starting wargear is "selected" for it, since the BT codex seems to use "equipped", "armed", and "selected" interchangeably.

Since the Armoury entry doesn't specify select up to two weapons from the Armoury - in which case I would argue that since the Crozius is not in the Armoury, they can take additional weapons - therefore the two weapon limit on the BT armoury includes weapons already included in the model's entry.

So no LCs on my Chappies anymore.

Note that the Chaplain entry states,

Options: A Chaplain can be give any equipment allowed from the Black Templars Armoury.

It doesn't state ADDITIONAL equipment, it says any equipment. If is said "additional equipment" I would say Gwar is right since that would be taking into account the equipment he is already equipped with as standard. However it doesn't so therefore any of his equipment can be traded out via the Options rule on page 30.

By Gwar's example, since the chaplains statline reflects power armour (3+ save) you would not be able to issue the chaplain terminator armor since "power armour is standard" and the chaplain could not have his "standard armor" as well as terminator armour.

Another good point. Unless, somehow, standard armor can be upgraded, while standard weapons cannot

But then again, we aren't even arguing raw are we lol.

Even in the marshal rule that Gwar tried to point out, the marshal would only lose his bp if he was choosing to upgrade it with the power weapon.

This isn't even about RAW anymore, it's about phrasing. >.>
Personally, I'd say yes Chaps can have a pair of LC's.
The reasons why have already been pointed out.

Brother Ramses wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:Initially I would have said that they could take LCs (which I have done as a BT player with my friends) but after carefully rereading my codex, I think Gwar! may be right... unfortunately for my friend Chaplain Klaus.

"Models with access to the Armoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon."

I would argue that a model's starting wargear is "selected" for it, since the BT codex seems to use "equipped", "armed", and "selected" interchangeably.

Since the Armoury entry doesn't specify select up to two weapons from the Armoury - in which case I would argue that since the Crozius is not in the Armoury, they can take additional weapons - therefore the two weapon limit on the BT armoury includes weapons already included in the model's entry.

So no LCs on my Chappies anymore.

Note that the Chaplain entry states,

Options: A Chaplain can be give any equipment allowed from the Black Templars Armoury.

It doesn't state ADDITIONAL equipment, it says any equipment. If is said "additional equipment" I would say Gwar is right since that would be taking into account the equipment he is already equipped with as standard. However it doesn't so therefore any of his equipment can be traded out via the Options rule on page 30.

By Gwar's example, since the chaplains statline reflects power armour (3+ save) you would not be able to issue the chaplain terminator armor since "power armour is standard" and the chaplain could not have his "standard armor" as well as terminator armour.

A fair point. Now that I read that part, it does seem very clear than any weapons given from the armoury replace what's already there (in the case of the Chaplain). I guess I'll just keep playing it how I was (allowing LCs) until a more convincing argument comes along.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Gwar! wrote:But he cannot be allowed to select 2 LC because he already had a 1 handed weapon selected as standard.

Repeating it doesn't make it any more true.

The Crozius is not 'selected'... It comes with him as standard.

He is allowed to take any allowed equipment from the Armoury. The Armoury page says that characters with armoury access can select up to two weapons. This does not include the Crozius that he starts with, because he doesn't select it.

It also doesn't come from the Armoury, which is what, in context, that 'may select' is referring to. But even ignoring that, someone 'selecting' something, and someone 'having' something are not the same thing.

If you actually have an argument against this, feel free to post it. And no, just repeating that the crozius is 'already selected' doesn't count as an argument unless you can actually provide some sort of explanation as to why this should be the case.