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I have read in several places how dreadnoughts own defilers in CC. And I felt like mathhammering a little bit to see if that’s true. Here is what I found.

Here is the likely hood of the listed results with a WS 4 AV 12 dread vs WS 3 AV 12 Defiler

Dreadnought vs Defiler
Attacks 1 2 3 4
Roll Destroyed or Explodes 14.81% 27.43% 47.34% 72.27%
Roll 2 Armament Destroyed 0% 0.86% 10.04% 18.37%
Roll One or Other 14.81% 28.06% 52.63% 77.37%

Defiler vs Dreadnought
Attacks 1 2 3 4 5 6
Roll Destroyed or Explodes 11.11% 20.99% 37.57% 61.03% 84.81% 97.69%
Roll 2 Armament Destroyed 0% 0.48% 7.39% 13.82% 19.81% 25.38%
Roll One or Other 11.11% 21.37% 42.19% 66.41% 87.82% 98.28%
(Sorry the columns don't line up, I'm trying to figure out how to make them)

Any professional actuaries will spot the simplicity of my analysis, but I am merely a lowly accountant and I think these figures get us close enough to makes some meaningful conclusions.

Here are some conclusions I take away from this.

1. It is totally reasonable for a Def./SG to charge a regular dreadnought, especially if you have daemonic possession.

A regular dread only has a 28% chance of stopping a daemoincally possessed Def before the Def gets to swing with all 6 attacks and has a 98% chance of completely ruining the Dreads day. Even without DP, 2 shaken or stunned results will put the Def at 4 attacks which still makes it significantly more likely to hurt the dreadnought.

2. Don’t get charged, especially by ironclad dreads.

An ironclad will be pumping out 4 attacks on the charge which is 77% of the time going to ruin your day. Even if you get lucky, the AV 13 will drop your already low 42% chance (without DP) to the low 30%. If you have DP, and you survive, you have almost the exact chance of hurting him back. The only trouble is going second several stacks the odds of winning this combat in his favor.

Regular dreads don’t fare as well, with only a 52% chance of ruining your day before coming back at 42%. But even still, statistically you are going to lose this fight more than you win, so avoid it.

What is your opinion?

Thats better then I expected actually. I was always worried that the hitting on 3's before I swing would be too great of an advantage for the Dreadnought, but I'm seeing here is that if you can get the charge in (easier since SG/Defilers have Fleet) you stand a good chance of winning.

It's a little better than I though too. I still would probably suggest trying to shoot the dreads first. Even if you don't blow it up your odds are even better if the dread goes into the combat already shaken or stunned.

Maybe I'm missing something, and I like the defiler, but how does it get 6 attacks? Base 3, even with +1 CC weapon and +1 on charge, that's just 5...

Edit: nevermind, I see you can take a fourth dread CC weapon if you drop the autocannon. Ignore my idiocy... this time.

Uhm...if you're talking about which one is better to take in an army, you have to figure the things that they will be facing, not having them face each other.

For example, the WS3 on the defiler hurts it when it takes swings back from Marine or Ork Powerklaw/fists.

Well, the defiler to me has always looked like it works best as a gunship or battlemech, not a CC monster. Battlecannon, TL Reaper Autocannon or TL lascannon, heavy flamer when they get close, or TL havoc launcher... I would only use it's assault on vehicles that DON'T fight back. Let the daemon prince or greater daemon handle the dreadnought.

Skarboy wrote:Well, the defiler to me has always looked like it works best as a gunship or battlemech, not a CC monster. Battlecannon, TL Reaper Autocannon or TL lascannon, heavy flamer when they get close, or TL havoc launcher... I would only use it's assault on vehicles that DON'T fight back. Let the daemon prince or greater daemon handle the dreadnought.

The issue with the Defiler has always been that its a hybrid beast.
Leman Russes are better Battlecannon platforms and Dreads are better assault platforms but the Defiler can do both pretty well. The key to using it is to examine your opponent's army and try to use it as a counter-unit.

minigun762 wrote:The issue with the Defiler has always been that its a hybrid beast.
Leman Russes are better Battlecannon platforms and Dreads are better assault platforms but the Defiler can do both pretty well. The key to using it is to examine your opponent's army and try to use it as a counter-unit.

Sure, and in today's extreme "min/max" army designs, folks probably look at a versatile unit as maybe not a weakness, but "less than optimal." One reason I'm considering a noise marine army with defilers and obliterators is precisely because they are versatile. Maybe it won't be hyper-efficient, but it will be fun and tactically engaging. With orks as a primary, I get tired at times of having to be 110% efficient with all my unit choices.

I’m not commenting on which is the better choice or more efficient, the demonically possessed defiler is MUCH more expensive than an assault cannon dread but also with an enormous range and high number of attacks. I just saw some chatter about this particular situation that sparked my interest. In the grand scheme of things the two assaulting one another would come up probably one in four games, if you played chaos v space marines every game.

The +2 CCW Defiler is a better jack-of-all-trades choice - battlecannon +5/6 CCW attacks versus a slight premium to the cost versus a chaos dread. Face a hoard and the battlecannon is primary. Fleet and 5 CC attacks beats insane dread with no large pie plate a psychotic nature and 2 base attacks.

Its role should not be to take on another dread in HTH though.

Defilers should have Furious Assault. Just saying.

Why? Just saying isn't offering much.
Str boost is wasted until it's weaponless.

It already has a combat boost by exchanging for combat arms and having fleet base.
Why furious charge? Just for the I boost...well there needs to be some balance to things.

Are you willing to pay for it? What would be reasonable? Etc. (not like this is the Proposed Rules section )

DAaddict:

Chaos Dreadnoughts with a single Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon have A3. Not to mention the opportunity to either Fleet or put out twice as much firepower is pretty handy. It's not unpredicatable for a Chaos player, since they should be prepared for whatever it does, but for their opponent it is difficult to predict and therefore much more threatening.

Nurglitch wrote:DAaddict:
It's not unpredicatable for a Chaos player, since they should be prepared for whatever it does, but for their opponent it is difficult to predict and therefore much more threatening.

Plus it can change tactics on any given turn.

I typically walk it forward for turns 1-3 blasting the Battlecannon. After that its either fall back and continue to fire, fleet forward and assault or its dead and my Rhinos have arrived (most likely )

You should run one for an Ironclad! I don't think it would go so well for the defiler...

The Defiler and its I3 is a really bummer especially if faced against other walkers. One reason Mathhammer can be fail.

tastytaste wrote:The Defiler and its I3 is a really bummer especially if faced against other walkers. One reason Mathhammer can be fail.

This statement makes no sense. Presumably "math-hammer" is the application of mathematics to Warhammer. Given that the order of attacks is governed by the mathematical relations of "equal", "less than" and "greater than", I'd say that the fact that the Defiler's I3 identifies it as at a disadvantage definitely scores one for math-hammer.