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Funny thing, i vote no. My decision is this because i do not think that we should fething BURY PEOPLE ALIVE.
What are your thoughts on the issue? I also took huge umbrage a while back at Obama giving a speech in which he gave his support for Turkey to be given full EU membership.
Here is a thought Barrack, how about you make them another State of the USA and keep your fething nose out?
I do not support the country because of 5 principal reasons.
Turkey's culture and values are different from those of the European Union as a whole. Turkey have a 99.8% Muslim population, they need to substantially improve respect for the rights of the non-Muslim religious communities to meet anywhere near European standards. They also are well known for Censorship, and i am pretty sure Richard Dawkins website is banned from being viewed in the whole country.
They do not recognise Cyprus as a real country, and they are a member of the union that they want to join!
The Turks have a massive population (75 million would make them second largest in the union iirc) and we could not absorb them with no negative effects.
Turkish people earn a relatively low per-capita income and this would negatively effect the EU wide economy.
Finally lets get down to brass tacks, Turkey is mostly not Geographically in Europe anyway!
What do you think?
As i am aware i am somewhat closed minded at times, i am most wanting to hear arguments against mine, so id expect to get some good ones from you left leaning types i argue with alot!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
mattyrm wrote:
Here is a thought Barrack, how about you make them another State of the USA and keep your fething nose out?
Exactly. Make them another state and make their problems yours, not ours.
The turks tend to be overconfident and aren't well liked with their neighbours, also got massive problems to integrate in mid-european
culture.
Ketara wrote:I would agree on the geographical standpoint. At this rate, we'll end up with EVERYONE in the EU, including Russia.
But Russia is part of europe, geographical and cultural.
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We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
It's silly to condemn a whole nation for the crime of a couple of nutters. Nowhere would be in the EU if we did that.
Anyway, there are plenty of legal and human rights issues to be resolved before Turkey could be admitted. One such prerequisite is for Turkey to open its ports to Greek Cypriot sipping.
Russia has a very different tradition, politically, culturally and religiously to the rest of Europe.
The thing is KK, this isnt just a couple of nutters, the government admitted that it happens more than that, and said there were 15 cases, but NGOs said the figure is far higher than that. This is a cultural problem with Islam, not just two nutters who randomly murdered someone.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
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Kilkrazy wrote:Russia has a very different tradition, politically, culturally and religiously to the rest of Europe.
Although Russia doesn't need or want to become a member of the EU, you are forgeting about the whole of Eastern Europe, sharing a strong commonality with traditions, religion, culture and polatics with Russia.
I would agree that economically it would be bad to add Turkey to the EU
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Indeed, but that operative word there is "in the past"
And im not one to stick up for Christianity either as your well aware, im an equal opportunities religious critic!
But the point it, do we really want to import these type of problems into our society? Ive read about these so called "honour" killings in the UK to a very small extent due to us importing some of the worst elements of Islamic society into our nation in the last ten years, do we really want to open up another can of worms and possibly exasperate the issue?
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
An excuse to post an Eddie Izzard clip, why don't mind if I do:
Turkey seemed like a relatively decent ally to us Westerners; aren't they already an associate member of the EU to boot? They've also got a relatively strong economy, military, political relations with Asia/Middle East/etc, and have become a point of great political interest for not only EU members but leaders of nations across the world. Sure, Turkey has work to do but initiating further membership talks and official EU process will motivate them further to reach those goals. Its not like EU membership is an overnight process.
And its not just Obama who wants the full-membership process to jump-start for the Turks, the UK's very own foreign minister thinks the same along with a perspective from experts in India:
The EU is inherently unsuited to wielding hard power "because it is not a state," says Francois Heisbourg, special adviser at the Foundation for Strategic Research, a Paris think tank.
EU members such as Germany, Britain and France retain their own foreign and security policies, which are often at cross purposes, analysts say. China and Russia have each exploited such divisions to play off EU members against each other on issues such as human rights and energy supplies.
Last fall, U.K. Foreign Minister David Miliband called on EU countries to drop their foreign-policy differences in a widely noted speech, saying that "the choice for Europe is simple: Get our act together and make the EU a leader on the world stage, or become spectators in a G-2 world shaped by the U.S. and China."
Greater unity would help the EU deal more effectively with China, Russia and others, but the EU's rapid expansion in recent years has made unity harder to achieve. That hasn't gone unnoticed in other regions.
When India's foreign ministry commissioned Mr. Kumar and other scholars to identify India's strategic interests for coming decades, the experts concluded India could ignore the EU's pretensions to be a world player.
The EU has one "silver bullet" that could boost its external influence, Mr. Kumar says: admitting Turkey. "That would change the EU's demography, make it seem like less of a Christian bloc, and raise its acceptance" in Asia and the Middle East, he says.
However, Turkey's EU membership talks have stalled amid growing mistrust on both sides.
The article mainly focuses on other interesting points such as the apparent inefficiencies, struggles, and relative hypocrisy already involved in the EU and how its "soft-power" only further marginalizes its potential and its likely future of taking a backseat to G-2/"new" world order.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/02/06 18:14:30
I don't know why i first thought this would be a thread about Thanksgiving and eating turkey for Thanksgiving in Europe (*facepalm*).
However, i fully agree with you mattyrm, except for the religious part. I've been last summer for holidays in Turkey, and I couldn't see the expression of Islamic religion almost anywhere. I went even so far as to ask the guide about their religion, as I also knew Turkey as a heavily Islamic country. Know what he said? "My friend, in Turkey, Islam is dead."
And yes, Turkey (or most of it) is not even in Europe, why should it be in the EU? If we integrate Turkey we could also integrate Iceland and Belarus
mattyrm wrote:Indeed, but that operative word there is "in the past"
And im not one to stick up for Christianity either as your well aware, im an equal opportunities religious critic!
But the point it, do we really want to import these type of problems into our society? Ive read about these so called "honour" killings in the UK to a very small extent due to us importing some of the worst elements of Islamic society into our nation in the last ten years, do we really want to open up another can of worms and possibly exasperate the issue?
Why do you think EU membership for Turkey would "import these type of problems".
They are social, psychological problems that occur in various forms everywhere. The bloke in Austria who locked his daughter in the cellar for 40 years. The nuns in Irish foster homes, who abused the children of single mothers. The Mormons in Utah who insist on having dozens of wives. The witch-doctors in London killing the demon children.
The Real problem is that the EU has grown from a Free trade Bloc to a poor attempt at a Federal States of Europe.
Go back to just dealing with trade and leave bloody politics out of this.
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Gwar! wrote:
Go back to just dealing with trade and leave bloody politics out of this.
Trade is implicitly political.
Anyway, Turkey would be a valuable military, and political addition to the EU. The concerns about cultural divergence are relevant from a standpoint of popular stability, but are otherwise of little concern.
Also, if Turkey does not join the EU its is very likely that they will become significantly more Islamic, and attempt to oppose Iranian influence in the Middle East. This is bad for the West, as the last thing we want is for those nations to begin taking sides which are not ours.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
If Turkey joins the E.U. then we may aswell let Iraq join the E.U. as they share a border, then Iran, then Afghanistan etc. If Turkey joins then we open the flood gates to millions of poor immigrants who will cripple the European economy. And besides the fact that Tukey has a poor human rights record,what can they actually offer?
Money? Jobs? Commerce?
I think not.
I love those little moments between the first kiss and the pepper spray...
I say we stop kissing Muslim ass and do what Mattyrm suggest. Butt out of foreign affairs.
Since Jan 20, 2009 we haven't fought a war on terror. We've been fighting a war on being Politically Incorrect.
After all we don't want to offend terrorists.
Honor killings are barbaric but let the Turkish government deal or NOT deal with it how they see fit. A lot of Europeans don't like how we in the US live our lives but I don't hear of the PM or the Queen making an effort to get involved in what we, within our own borders, do as a country.
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Anyway, Turkey would be a valuable military, and political addition to the EU. The concerns about cultural divergence are relevant from a standpoint of popular stability, but are otherwise of little concern.
Also, if Turkey does not join the EU its is very likely that they will become significantly more Islamic, and attempt to oppose Iranian influence in the Middle East. This is bad for the West, as the last thing we want is for those nations to begin taking sides which are not ours.
What relevance does Turkeys military capability have to anything? The EU is a trade bloc, not NATO.
And as for Izzard, I love him, see him live, and I still think his political views are seriously skewed. To put it simply, Izzard thinks New Labour is great, and we should be the United States of Europe already.
Peace, prosperity and freedom for its 498 million citizens — in a fairer, safer world.
What results so far?
Frontier-free travel and trade, the euro (the single European currency), safer food and a greener environment, better living standards in poorer regions, joint action on crime and terror, cheaper phone calls, millions of opportunities to study abroad … and much more besides.
Also google: Common Security and Defence Policy and Common Foreign and Security Policy for more info on EU's military policy.
I'm with Obama and British Foreign Secretary David Miliband on this one - as long as Turkey meets EU standards give 'em full membership but you have to at least initiate such a process if the EU really wants to reach those goals:
Miliband:
No one says Turkey is ready to join today; its own reforms and modernisation will take some time. But the reforms are more likely to happen with the galvanising prospect of EU entry that would benefit the EU as well a Turkey. Turkey has choices. Its pivotal geographical, ideological and political/theological location means that it can be an independent player or add value to the alliances it joins. When I visit Turkey in June, I will be remaking the case for Turkish entry from a British and European perspective.
Interesting to see other world perspectives like the Indian scholars in my first post above commenting on Turkey being the EU's "silver bullet" to extend its influence and how the status quo image of the EU looks like a "christian bloc".
Turkey's been a longstanding Western ally and been at least an associate member of the various predecessors to the EU. They're a country with problems but also a lot of potential and huge political interest.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/02/06 23:40:29
Hang on a second. Economic ramifications? Yes. Political? By implication. But military? No. The EU is not a military alliance. We are under no military obligation through the EU, and neither is any other nation-state. They may choose to co-operate on certain fronts such as smuggling and terrorism, but there is no militaristic union.
NATO is a union of military convenience/necessity. The EU is not. The moment the EU takes on military ramifications, is the moment it develops into something altogether more sinister.(AKA, the United States of Europe).
The EU has influence as a trade bloc, and can apply pressure through the use of various economic sanctions. But they have no say or control over the armed forces of each member-state, and no military muscle of their own. Member-states are committed to a common defence policy, but all that actually consists of is a pledge to hold to concerted efforts such as combating smuggling and upholding economic sanctions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/07 01:07:24
Ketara wrote:Hang on a second. Economic ramifications? Yes. Political? By implication. But military? No. The EU is not a military alliance. We are under no military obligation through the EU, and neither is any other nation-state. They may choose to co-operate on certain fronts such as smuggling and terrorism, but there is no militaristic union.
NATO is a union of military convenience/necessity. The EU is not. The moment the EU takes on military ramifications, is the moment it develops into something altogether more sinister.(AKA, the United States of Europe).
The EU has influence as a trade bloc, and can apply pressure through the use of various economic sanctions. But they have no say or control over the armed forces of each member-state, and no military muscle of their own. Member-states are committed to a common defence policy, but all that actually consists of is a pledge to hold to concerted efforts such as combating smuggling and upholding economic sanctions.
EU military/defense contributions are voluntary but they have the history, policies, and goals like the Petersberg tasks that are upheld: humanitarian aid, crisis management, peacekeeping and peacemaking. The European Defence Agency and the Treaty of Lisbon further enhances these operations and adds the promotion and enhancement of European armaments cooperation.
Turkey has a sizeable military, the second largest standing force in NATO, which could help the in those EU tasks and many experts believe Turkey would significantly increase the EU's chances of being a legitimate world power player. In addition to their size, they are also a member of the European Union Battlegroups and have contributed forces to multinational/Western alliances for decades with high praise from their fellow allies to show for it. They've also had to deal with the PKK terrorist organization for decades which is also a topic of controversy regarding human rights violations. However it probably safe to say that Turkey has more than their fair share of bloodshed directly and indirectly related to Iraq and terrorism in genera.
Turkey does have work to do, but I'm still siding with the UK Foreign Minister, Obama, India, and likely most of the top world powers and experts: Give them the chance and timeline to prove they can be a full member. Across the globe, leaders and experts state that Turkey is a key prospect for the EU and could be a great addition politically, military, and economically. They've been a longstanding ally to Western nations and contributed in multinational efforts including EU tasks but they do have work to do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/07 02:37:09
Turkey best stay the feth out of the EU, it's not the European and Almost European Union. If Turkey is allowed in then soon everyone will be calling Turkey a country in Europe and then I will explode in rage as only people saying that countries are part of one continent when I think they're part of another continent can cause me to do.
It's almost as bad as the people who think something is more green than yellow when it's very clearly more yellow than green.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
Ketara wrote:
What relevance does Turkeys military capability have to anything? The EU is a trade bloc, not NATO.
The EU is significantly more than a trade bloc. Trade blocs don't have single currencies, or judicial councils.
More to the point, even trade blocs have military interests; especially trade blocs that depend on the security of oil and natural gas pipelines that flow out of a soon to be antagonist (Russia), and a potential ally (Turkey). That doesn't even consider the fact that Turkey would become a fast ally by outcast to Russia, or the United States (not something the EU should want when thinking of its future). Military allegiance extends beyond the ability to fight wars.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Cane wrote:
Turkey has a sizeable military, the second largest standing force in NATO, which could help the in those EU tasks and many experts believe Turkey would significantly increase the EU's chances of being a legitimate world power player.
Military power? They need help with a lot of things and just having enough young men to throw into conflicts may seem a
important point of "power" but we have seen that numbers don't win actually.
Cane wrote:
Turkey does have work to do, but I'm still siding with the UK Foreign Minister, Obama, India, and likely most of the top world powers and experts: Give them the chance and timeline to prove they can be a full member. Across the globe, leaders and experts state that Turkey is a key prospect for the EU and could be a great addition politically, military, and economically. They've been a longstanding ally to Western nations and contributed in multinational efforts including EU tasks but they do have work to do.
Theyre only a stategical addition, but never a economical or political one.
I doubt the EU would survive the financial surge the membership of turkey will cause.
And none of those who are for it will pay,especially all your supporters of them becoming part of the EU will not.
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H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
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I'd have to go with letting Turkey in on this one. It would certainly increase the EU's potential as a major player. Besides, I thought Cyprus was part of the EU, so why not Turkey?
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1hadhq wrote:
Military power? They need help with a lot of things and just having enough young men to throw into conflicts may seem a
important point of "power" but we have seen that numbers don't win actually.
Numerical superiority will be critical in the future of level fields.
1hadhq wrote:
And none of those who are for it will pay,especially all your supporters of them becoming part of the EU will not.
No, they won't.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
It is somewhat telling that most of the people on here in favour of Turkey joining the EU, are not EU citizens themselves. I don't fancy a massive influx of Turks, like.
Gwar! wrote:The Real problem is that the EU has grown from a Free trade Bloc to a poor attempt at a Federal States of Europe.
Go back to just dealing with trade and leave bloody politics out of this.
I think Gwar has it right.
It all started out as a way to free up trade and somehow you tools have ended up with a president (not elected), a foreign affairs minister and a hugely bloated beuracracy serving elected representatives who have no power except to introduce legislation that needlessly and endlessly annoys the very people they represent.
Unfortunately it seems that a United States of Europe will be here in a couple of decades.... then comes the civil war.
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