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Ok we know of the debate about Hive Tyrants given wings, if they can Deep Strike. Well I havn't seen anything said about Gargoyles and Harpies. Can they Deep Strike as well? If we go by that HT given wings can't DS, I guess that would mean Gargoyles and harpies can't DS either since they don't have a rule that allows them to DS like Ravenors do.

Since the debate about HT with wings can't DS because they are not FA, but Gargoyles and Harpies are FA, how can that be applied to them then? I am still new to the rules so can anyone give me page number references in the BRB and Tyranid codex to help me here please.

Davor wrote:Ok we know of the debate about Hive Tyrants given wings, if they can Deep Strike. Well I havn't seen anything said about Gargoyles and Harpies. Can they Deep Strike as well? If we go by that HT given wings can't DS, I guess that would mean Gargoyles and harpies can't DS either since they don't have a rule that allows them to DS like Ravenors do.

Since the debate about HT with wings can't DS because they are not FA, but Gargoyles and Harpies are FA, how can that be applied to them then? I am still new to the rules so can anyone give me page number references in the BRB and Tyranid codex to help me here please.

Gargoyles and Harpies are actually Jump Infantry (as well as having Wings). They can Deep Strike. (Page 93 Tyranids Codex and Page 52 BRB)

A Hive Tyrant is a MC. He cannot Deep Strike, even with wings.

Being FA or not has nothing to do with it.

Why would they make Gargoyles and Harpies actually Jump Infantry if wings allowed you to Deep Strike (thus making the difference between being Jump Infantry and Moving Jump Infantry utterly meaningless)?

Thank you Gwar, I missed the part on Page 52 of the BRB about Jump Infantry can DS. So much to read and trying to learn all the rules, I keep forgetting them.

Thank you again, and thanks for a quick response.

Gwar not everyone shares your opinion in regard to hte HT.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Gwar not everyone shares your opinion in regard to hte HT.

I don't have an opinion, I have facts.

Gwar! wrote:

Davor wrote:Ok we know of the debate about Hive Tyrants given wings, if they can Deep Strike. Well I havn't seen anything said about Gargoyles and Harpies. Can they Deep Strike as well? If we go by that HT given wings can't DS, I guess that would mean Gargoyles and harpies can't DS either since they don't have a rule that allows them to DS like Ravenors do.

Since the debate about HT with wings can't DS because they are not FA, but Gargoyles and Harpies are FA, how can that be applied to them then? I am still new to the rules so can anyone give me page number references in the BRB and Tyranid codex to help me here please.

Gargoyles and Harpies are actually Jump Infantry (as well as having Wings). They can Deep Strike. (Page 93 Tyranids Codex and Page 52 BRB)

A Hive Tyrant is a MC. He cannot Deep Strike, even with wings.

Being FA or not has nothing to do with it.

Why would they make Gargoyles and Harpies actually Jump Infantry if wings allowed you to Deep Strike (thus making the difference between being Jump Infantry and Moving Jump Infantry utterly meaningless)?

Trying to slip that in again Gwar!? Yes, the Hive Tyrant is an MC. With wings it now moves as Jump Infantry. Reading the Jump Infantry movement rules you'll see that models/units may choose to Deep Strike. Because the HT (with Wings) now moves as Jump Infantry it follows the Jump Infantry movement rules period. The HT w/wings may choose to Deep Strike. You are wrong to tie the Unit Type, and only the Unit Type of JI to Deep Strike. It is the movement rules for JI that allow them to Deep Strike.

Yes the HT with wings, Gargoyles, and Harpy can all Deep Strike.

-Yad

This is not about the Hive Tyrant, we have a nice debate about that in other threads, unless they have been locked .

Yad wrote:Yes the HT with wings cannot deep strike, Gargoyles, and Harpy can Deep Strike.

Fix'd.

...Too soon?

A Hive Tyrant is a MC. He cannot Deep Strike, even with wings.

Good point MCs are strictly forbidden from DSing because Gwar said so...

Harpies are not JI they are MCs they however can DS because they have wings.

Gargoyles are JI and can therefore DS.

Why would they make Gargoyles and Harpies actually Jump Infantry if wings allowed you to Deep Strike (thus making the difference between being Jump Infantry and Moving Jump Infantry utterly meaningless)?

Unfortunately you seem to have a very poor grasp of the rules. I'd advise you understand them more before giving out incorrect advice like above again.

Harpies ARE NOT JUMP INFANTRY. The reason there is a difference between JI and move like JI? Because JI like MC is a unit type. If you made the HT or Harpy JI then they'd follow all the rules for JI (i.e. the other stuff on pg52 not under movement) and would thus be classed as infantry for assault and hsooting. Meaning they could gain a normal cover save and would not ignore armour saves in CC or get 2d6 penetration...

This has been explained to you many times and the RAW is not changed by you claiming your oppinion counts more than what is written in the rulebook.

Gwar! wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Gwar not everyone shares your opinion in regard to hte HT.

I don't have an opinion, I have facts.

like when you said Bjorn's INV save doesn't work?

G

So a Harpie cannot DS? I forgot it's a MC.

Green Blow Fly wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Gwar not everyone shares your opinion in regard to hte HT.

I don't have an opinion, I have facts.

like when you said Bjorn's INV save doesn't work?

G

Gwar! wrote:

Green Blow Fly wrote:Gwar not everyone shares your opinion in regard to hte HT.

I don't have an opinion, I have facts.

If by 'facts' you mean a misrepresentation of the Tyranid Wings and Jump Infantry movement rules, then more power to you

As I see it, your argument basically boils down to:
1. Only those units with the Unit Type of Jump Infantry may use the Deep Strike option as described in the Jump Infantry movement rules.
2. Any unit that can move as Jump Infantry, but are not typed as Jump Infantry, are not allowed to Deep Strike.

Why do you believe [2] is true? Unless I'm missing something in the above, if we were to write this out in a logical proof the gaping hole you're creating would be very obvious.

Davor's original post included a misconception about the HT's ability to Deep Strike if given wings. Gwar! reinforced that mistake while providing a partially correct answer for Davor's question regarding Harpies and Gargoyles. I'm simply correcting Gwar!'s mistakes.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:So a Harpie cannot DS? I forgot it's a MC.

No, Harpies can Deep Strike. Wings force them to follow all of the Movement rules for Jump Infantry. Deep Striking is an option included in the movement rules for Jump Infantry.

-Yad

Right here it goes:

Gargoyles are jump infantry therefore they can deepstrike as per pg 52. of the BRB.

Harpies are MC with wings and can therefore deepstrike.

1) Wings allows the unit to move as Jump infantry. pg84 Tyranid codex: "Models equipped with wings move in the same way as Jump Infantry, as described..."

2) Jump infantry can deep strike. pg 52 BRB "All jump infantry units may enter the battle by 'deep strike', as explained on page 95."

3) Deep strike is movement. pg 95 BRB "In the movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move further"

"obviously count as having moved in their previous Movement phase."

"they are too disrupted by their deep strike move"

QED can we give this a rest now?

Jump Infantry is a unit type:

Jump infantry have special movement rules detailed on page 52 of the BRB. Under movement, Jump Infantry gains the ability to move 12" during the movement phase, Fall back 3D6" and deep strike.

Since the deep strike is under the movement section, and a HT with wings can 'move' as jump infantry, it would follow that Deep Strike is conferred. In addition, Deep Strike specifically occurs in the movement phase and uses the phraseology (page 95 BRB) "In the movement phase when they arrive, these units may not move any further...". This also implies that the act of Deep Striking is a form of movement, which would fall under the heading "moves like jump infantry". If the act of using deep strike wasn't a 'move' then the rules would simply say "may not move the turn they deep strike, rather than move any further".

The allowance to disembark from a transport is listed as an exception to this rule, so the movement referred to when it says 'any further' cannot be this movement either, which logically means that Deep Strike is a 'Move', and that units that move like Jump Infantry should get it.

(I don't particularly like this rule though, I think it is a technicality only, and deep strike should be deployment rules for JI, not movement rules)

EDIT: Ninja'd**

It doesn't make sense to relegate DS as a deployment rule though. During Deployment you make certain choices as to where and how your forces will arrive. In the Movement phase those choices are carried out.

-Yad

Fair enough. The option to deep strike is chosen during deployment though, is it not?

True, and what I just said was a bit of a over-generalization. I didn't mean to imply that since some action occurs during a specific phase it must count as that phase. For example, certain psychic powers, while they are used during the Shooting phase, do not count as shooting.

I agree with you overall take though that DS counts as Movement.

-Yad

Something can be movement AND deployment like coming on from reserve or outflanking no one has a problem with those things being both movement and deployment so why do they have a porblem with Dsing being movement? Despite the fact that the rules clearly state that it is movement...

Gwar! wrote:Gargoyles and Harpies are actually Jump Infantry (as well as having Wings).

Gwar! wrote:I don't have an opinion, I have facts.

One of these things is not like the other...




For reference sake, and to avoid having another multi-page thread on it, the previous discussion on Wings/DS/Hive Tyrants is here.

To summarise, Jump Infantry can Deep Strike. Models that move as Jump Infantry can also Deep Strike, unless you subscribe to the idea that the ability to Deep Strike, despite being a part of the Movement rules for Jump Infantry, is not conferred by the ability to move as Jump Infantry.