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Spore mines are required by the "Living Bomb" special rule at the beginning of the movement phase to move D6 inches in a direction determined by rolling the scatter die (nid player chooses direction if a hit is rolled)

The rule does not however provide any restrictions on normal movement (ie: "drift" D6 inches to the left, then the nid player has it move 6 inches forward)

Am I missing a rule somewhere that prohibits regular movement with Spore mines?

Demogerg wrote:Spore mines are required by the "Living Bomb" special rule at the beginning of the movement phase to move D6 inches in a direction determined by rolling the scatter die (nid player chooses direction if a hit is rolled)

The rule does not however provide any restrictions on normal movement (ie: "drift" D6 inches to the left, then the nid player has it move 6 inches forward)

Am I missing a rule somewhere that prohibits regular movement with Spore mines?

Nope. RaW they can move normally as well. GW really cocked up Spore Mines rules.

Cocked up? or made awesome....

dont remove when explode, can move+assault, etc...

Well, what they *really* cocked up was not defining what dice to use. All they said was it has to have 6 sides. So mine is going to be rounded, with a big '1' side, and maybe weighted.

Gee they really cocked it up by not explicitely defining every single word used in the entire game.
Like, they didn't explain the word 'exploded' very well. I guess I can make it mean that it stays on the board and keeps going. Hell, since it is still in contact, it will explode an infinite number of times, yay me!!

Spore mines have their own movement rules. These rules supercede the rules for 'standard' infantry units.
Otherwise, Jump Infantry can move 12" *and* move 6". That should be fun.


Important lesson;
RAW stands for "Rules As Written".
RAW does not stand for "Rules As Whatever I can pervert and twist them into by looking at them sideways and squinting real hard"

It's almost as if GW thinks we have a lick of common sense.

coredump wrote:Important lesson;
RAW stands for "Rules As Written".
RAW does not stand for "Rules As Whatever I can pervert and twist them into by looking at them sideways and squinting real hard"

Important lesson #2:
The fact that people discuss whacky rules interpretations online in no way reflects on how they actually endorse playing the game...

coredump you said it so well. YMDC is starting to slide back into the Twilight Zone again.

G

coredump wrote:Well, what they *really* cocked up was not defining what dice to use. All they said was it has to have 6 sides. So mine is going to be rounded, with a big '1' side, and maybe weighted.

Gee they really cocked it up by not explicitely defining every single word used in the entire game.
Like, they didn't explain the word 'exploded' very well. I guess I can make it mean that it stays on the board and keeps going. Hell, since it is still in contact, it will explode an infinite number of times, yay me!!

Spore mines have their own movement rules. These rules supercede the rules for 'standard' infantry units.
Otherwise, Jump Infantry can move 12" *and* move 6". That should be fun.


Important lesson;
RAW stands for "Rules As Written".
RAW does not stand for "Rules As Whatever I can pervert and twist them into by looking at them sideways and squinting real hard"

+1 for coredump

for OP:

The movement directions given supersede normal movement. Spore mines are one of a very few units that have defined movement-- everyone else uses movement based on BRB and unit type.

Spore mines have compulsory movement instructions. A unit with Rage doesn't make a move towards the nearest enemy unit, followed by a normal move. Using the "RAW" approach, that could be argued.


Common sense is absolutely necessary to play the game.
Now, if only it was a tenet of YMDC...

kartofelkopf wrote:Common sense is absolutely necessary to play the game.
Now, if only it was a tenet of YMDC...

It would be, if it could be defined.

What makes sense to one person quite often doesn't to someone else. I've seen too many rules debates where one side thought that it 'obviously' made more sense to play this way whilst the other side thought that it just as 'obviously' made sense to play that way to put much stock in common sense as a reliable way of resolving rules issues.

What people need to remember instead is that we're talking about a game of toy soldiers... If people think a rule works differently to how you think it should work, (or if people are simply discussing how the rule is written), even if you personally don't think it makes sense to play the game that way, it's really not a big deal.

insaniak wrote:
Important lesson #2:
The fact that people discuss whacky rules interpretations online in no way reflects on how they actually endorse playing the game...

I understand this... but at that point, aren't they just spamming up their post count?

I mean... if the idea of the forum is to help figure out how a rule is meant to be played (either through a strict rules interpretation or a strict reading of RAW), then posting an intentionally nonsensical or 'wacky' interpretation is useless.

I don't object to a RAW approach to rules... I mean, RAW are, quite literally, the Rules. But, taking RAW and intentionally twisting its interpretation through a literalist reading leads to silliness like Terminators don't have Terminator Armor, Nork Deddog isn't an Ogryn, Scout vs Scouts special rule, etc, etc.

If a tabula rasa player came to YMDC trying to figure out how the game is meant to be played, some posters on dakka would lead them far astray with their RAW RAW RAW approach to rules.

kartofelkopf wrote:I mean... if the idea of the forum is to help figure out how a rule is meant to be played (either through a strict rules interpretation or a strict reading of RAW), then posting an intentionally nonsensical or 'wacky' interpretation is useless.

Not at all. For one, understanding that the way you play a given rule isn't actually how it is written goes a long way towards minimising disagreements at the table. It's less of a surprise when the guy standing opposite you is telling you that how you play it is wrong.

But, taking RAW and intentionally twisting its interpretation through a literalist reading leads to silliness like Terminators don't have Terminator Armor, Nork Deddog isn't an Ogryn, Scout vs Scouts special rule, etc, etc.

It's worth keeping in mind that these things are not a result of 'twisting' the rules. They're pure and simple the result of GW's lazy style of rules writing.

Yes, it's fair enough to assume that something that looks like an Ogryn should be considered by the rule to be an Ogryn. But sometimes it isn't. Leman Russ Battle Tanks, for example, come in a variety of flavours. Inquisition armies can only take the generic one. The others, despite being Leman Russes, are not considered Leman Russes for the purposes of that rule.

GW makes this far more confusing than it needs to be by not adequately outlining exactly what everything actually is. So it's left up to players to sort it out for themselves... And that brings us back to common sense territory... People have to decide for themselves which interpretation of a weird rule makes the most sense. A lot of the time, figuring out exactly what the rule actually says is the best starting point for that.

YMDC has historically been primarily concerned with RAW because it's really the only common ground that we, as a disparate group of gamers from all over the planet, actually have when it comes to the rules and how they should be applied.

If a tabula rasa player came to YMDC trying to figure out how the game is meant to be played, some posters on dakka would lead them far astray with their RAW RAW RAW approach to rules.

Which is why I've been trying to angle discussions more towards pointing out when RAW is not the way the game is generally played, or when there are a couple of alternate interpretations, even if those alternates aren't as popular on the boards here. But that doesn't mean that people shouldn't discuss the RAW... just that people need to keep a little perspective when doing so.

Some of the mods are rules lawyers and lawyers always stick together.

G

kartofelkopf wrote:The movement directions given supersede normal movement. Spore mines are one of a very few units that have defined movement-- everyone else uses movement based on BRB and unit type.

Spore mines have compulsory movement instructions. A unit with Rage doesn't make a move towards the nearest enemy unit, followed by a normal move. Using the "RAW" approach, that could be argued.

Rage movement is different to a Spore Mine's Living Bomb movement.

Rage is a movement requirement imposed on a model.

Living Bomb moves a Spore Mine d6" at the beginning of the movement phase.

Living Bomb makes no mention of replacing normal movement (although by the movement rules on BRB p11, you probably can't go back and move a Spore Mine again).

I don't object to a RAW approach to rules... I mean, RAW are, quite literally, the Rules.

Sorry but this is just miles from the truth RAW is not and never will be the rules.

Discussing RAW even if it is an entirely contrived interpretation (like in this thread) still has value. It allows you to pull something if someone is being TFG or it tells you what TFG is likely to try to pull next and it tells you how the RAW stands. This can be advantageous as knowing the RAW is miles from what the actual rules are allows you to point this out with your opponent and come to a mutuatl agreement before the game. RAW claims my Spore mine can move, assault and does not get removed when it explodes lets play that with the obvious RAI that none of the above stands and that the Doom is a Zoathrope, Swarmlord a Tyrant etc...

Knowing the RAW interpretation (or interpretations) also allows you to pre-empt issues with tournament rulings so you can check with the TO before you build your list and then find that X tactic is entirely useless because of B interpretation or ruling.

Insaniak, you have got a very good point there. I actually enjoy having strange rules discussions here on the internet. Then I can be familiar with what rules contin the most potential conflict, and what are the most common/likely interpretations of them.

Becuase I don't want rules arguing getting in the way of enjoying the game. So I keep the arguing at times when I couldn't possible be playing. And when I have my precious few gaming hours I don't have to be TFG, because I can throw my ego around at the forums. You are a sort of security outlet for me :-)

forkbanger wrote:

kartofelkopf wrote:The movement directions given supersede normal movement. Spore mines are one of a very few units that have defined movement-- everyone else uses movement based on BRB and unit type.

Spore mines have compulsory movement instructions. A unit with Rage doesn't make a move towards the nearest enemy unit, followed by a normal move. Using the "RAW" approach, that could be argued.

Rage movement is different to a Spore Mine's Living Bomb movement.

Rage is a movement requirement imposed on a model.

Living Bomb moves a Spore Mine d6" at the beginning of the movement phase.

Living Bomb makes no mention of replacing normal movement (although by the movement rules on BRB p11, you probably can't go back and move a Spore Mine again).

Here's a fun question. Is there anywhere in the BGB that states you may only move once a movement phase? If yes, than your approach won't work. If no, than what's stopping me from moving my pieces 6" over and over with my genestealers turn one, all the way to my enemies' line?

Klawz wrote:Here's a fun question. Is there anywhere in the BGB that states you may only move once a movement phase? If yes, than your approach won't work. If no, than what's stopping me from moving my pieces 6" over and over with my genestealers turn one, all the way to my enemies' line?

You can only make one normal move per movement phase. The problem is, the Spore Mines special rule does NOT state it replaces the normal move, so you can make the normal move AND the special move.

Gwar! wrote:

Klawz wrote:Here's a fun question. Is there anywhere in the BGB that states you may only move once a movement phase? If yes, than your approach won't work. If no, than what's stopping me from moving my pieces 6" over and over with my genestealers turn one, all the way to my enemies' line?

You can only make one normal move per movement phase. The problem is, the Spore Mines special rule does NOT state it replaces the normal move, so you can make the normal move AND the special move.

Oddly enough, I can't find that outlined anywhere in the rules. You know why not? Because the GW writers believe that they DON'T have to outline where in the rules it says you can only move once, or where my move replaces the normal move.

Klawz wrote:Here's a fun question. Is there anywhere in the BGB that states you may only move once a movement phase? If yes, than your approach won't work. If no, than what's stopping me from moving my pieces 6" over and over with my genestealers turn one, all the way to my enemies' line?

"Once a unit has completed all of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one"

"You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit"

As someone who played a lot during second edition then skipped 3rd and 4th edition, when I got my hands on my first nid army as the tyranid 5th edition codex came out, I looked up biovores and spore mines to make my fluffy army, everyone seems caught up on the randomness of spore mines, but as I see it, they are a "Living" bomb and can move on their own just fine, they just have to deal with up to 6 inches of "scatter" before their normal movement.

when it comes to spore mine HIWPI will be d6 random movement, 6' normal movement, they die when they explode, and assaulting units pile in completely before it explodes.

Drunkspleen wrote:

Klawz wrote:Here's a fun question. Is there anywhere in the BGB that states you may only move once a movement phase? If yes, than your approach won't work. If no, than what's stopping me from moving my pieces 6" over and over with my genestealers turn one, all the way to my enemies' line?

"Once a unit has completed all of its movement, the player selects another unit and moves that one"

"You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit"

Fair enough. But still, why should the spore mines move twice in a turn?
"Once the spore mines has completed all of its movement (D6" in direction of scatter), the player selects another unit and moves that one"

"You may not go back and change the move already made by the previous spore mines"

Demogerg wrote:when it comes to spore mine HIWPI will be d6 random movement, 6' normal movement, they die when they explode, and assaulting units pile in completely before it explodes.

I wish you luck with that, truly I do, I get the feeling it will be hard to find a group that agrees with you.

Although to be honest, other than the pile in moves, I would happily play that way.

Klawz wrote:Fair enough. But still, why should the spore mines move twice in a turn?
"Once the spore mines has completed all of its movement (D6" in direction of scatter), the player selects another unit and moves that one"

"You may not go back and change the move already made by the previous spore mines"

While the d6" drift is probably meant to replace the usual 6" move, it doesn't explicitly say that it does. It isn't like a Fall Back move that clearly defines when and how you move, and that it is your movement for the turn. All Living Bomb says is that you move d6" at the start of your movement phase.

Eh. All units move once during their movement phase.

Spore mines just specify that their movement

A) Is done at the start of the movement phase
B) Is compulsory
C) Is random

It doesn't state that they do their special move in lieu of their normal move because the special move -is- their normal move.

Drunkspleen hits the nail on the head. Once a unit has completed its movement, you cannot later come back to it and move it again.

kartofelkopf wrote:Eh. All units move once during their movement phase.

Spore mines just specify that their movement

A) Is done at the start of the movement phase
B) Is compulsory
C) Is random

It doesn't state that they do their special move in lieu of their normal move because the special move -is- their normal move.

Drunkspleen hits the nail on the head. Once a unit has completed its movement, you cannot later come back to it and move it again.

Thank you, that's what I was trying to say!

forkbanger wrote:

Klawz wrote:Fair enough. But still, why should the spore mines move twice in a turn?
"Once the spore mines has completed all of its movement (D6" in direction of scatter), the player selects another unit and moves that one"

"You may not go back and change the move already made by the previous spore mines"

While the d6" drift is probably meant to replace the usual 6" move, it doesn't explicitly say that it does. It isn't like a Fall Back move that clearly defines when and how you move, and that it is your movement for the turn. All Living Bomb says is that you move d6" at the start of your movement phase.

I never noticed this. Just like how people say they can't assault, it dosn't say they can't assault, it dosn't say that they don't move 6". All it says is at the begining of the Tyranid movement phase Spore Mines move D6 by the scatter dice.

The way I see this now, and espicially that they are in the FA, they move 7"-12" a turn. The first 1"-6" inches is random and the rest of the 6" is moved by the players choice. So infact the Spore Mines dosn't move twice in the movement phase as some suggested, but actually moves only once, but the movement is delayed just like in Assaulting a unit. The Spore Mines have to move thier first 1"-6" movement before anyone else then they move after wards. Just like in CC, one model moves to get into B2B contact to make an assault. If we go by movement rules this can't be because the model would be out of unit co-herency and there for coudln't move or attack anymore until they get together. So the CC Assult rules makes a rule change, just like the living bomb rules do. I always thought paying 10 points per Spore Mine was expensive for a model that isn't that strong, this would make up for the high point cost for a random model with S, T, I and Ld of ONE.

So either GW really screwed up or this is the way it has to be played unless you house rule it not to. And as we know GW will they admit they made a mistake? I guess if the Tyranid Errata the Living Bomb rule, then that will be their admitance they made a mistake.

Thanks for brining this up, I never noticed it. Again I said this before, we can't go by how units worked in a previous edtion, if so, we can say GW made a mistake with Lictors and Carnifex that they have to be in broods. Just like how GW made a mistake about the Ork units lost thier "Waaahhgg" rule, ( sorry I don't have codex on me, forgot how to spell it). So until GW errata this, we have to say that Spore Mines have a movement of 7"-12" and had to be done before any other Tyranid units move. Just like when they get deployed, they deploy before ANY unit is placed on the board.

Just curious, what does Gwar say to this now, since he likes to go by RAW.

*edit* Just read Gwars FAQ about it. I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you that Gwar is going by RAI instead of RAW. What is the world coming too?

Davor wrote:*edit* Just read Gwars FAQ about it. I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you that Gwar is going by RAI instead of RAW. What is the world coming too?

I have always been like this. I argue RaW to work out what the RaW is. I don't actually play it that way, I just want it all sorted out so I can clearly say "Look, this is what is supposed to happen, but shall we interpret it like this? If not, I am more than happy to default to the Rules as Written in the Codex and Rulebook."

I havn't seen you argure once Gwar. I see you debate, but never loose your cool and argue. You always give good points to your arguements, I mean debates LOL